Gay marriage in Australia: Yes or No? (1 Viewer)

The_Doc_Man

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@StanHansen - there are kids out there who would LOVE to have a permanent, stable family regardless of its structure. And don't forget that in many cases, one parent has been "living a lie" for years and finally cannot stay silent, so "comes out." The marriage breaks up. And if for some reason the straight parent is unfit due to drugs, alcohol, or other personal demons, that leaves the other parent - the gay one - to take care of the kid or kids. If you have a ban on gay adoption, that means that the new parent cannot adopt the kids even if that is what was desired.

If the floodgates are open, it is time to let them flood and see what washes out with the tides. Once we have some data on the subject, we should be able to decide which is worse - two gay parents or no parents at all.
 

Galaxiom

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Once we have some data on the subject, we should be able to decide which is worse - two gay parents or no parents at all.
I don't know if you meant it to come out quite like that but what you have said is quite offensive. The presumption that having same sex parents is a bad thing has no basis whatsoever. Many people have grown up in families with same sex parents and are perfectly well adjusted, despite the negative reactions of some in the general public.

Some of them, such as Jodie Foster who was raised by her mother and lesbian partner, are very well known.

MLB player Joe Valentine was raised by his mom, Deb Valentine, and her partner, Doreen Price. He never knew his father growing up. Valentine says, "It's no different than having a mother and father. These are the two women who raised me, and they are wonderful people. It's just not a big deal to me. Why should it be?"
 

Galaxiom

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And just in case you think it is all about having two mothers:
 

The_Doc_Man

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G, my statement was made dispassionately in the same sense that any scientist would prefer - to make no statement that presumes something about the question being considered. And it is a question that is worth answering definitively.

I sense that you are offended with me more easily now after my comment about cleft palates in a complex context, and as I recall I apologized unconditionally for that one. But I am not going to walk around looking over my shoulder to see whom I might accidentally offend next. To me, "political correctness" and the culture of calling down EVERY POSSIBLE OFFENSE is merely trying to cancel ME because I don't think like YOU do. And for that, I am deeply offended because YOU are implicitly being dismissive of my own worth.

If I added my passion in the context of the statement to which you objected, I would state clearly and without hesitation that having LOVING parents, whatever else they might be, is the most important thing in a child's life. I put no other qualifiers on the parents than that they must be loving and caring with regard to their child's well-being.

I have a gay step-daughter who is an absolutely WONDERFUL person; hard-working, honest, responsible, gainfully employed, married, intelligent, ... I could go on but I hope you get the point. I am NOT anti-gay at all. Many of my best friends in college WERE gay. Once we established everyone's preferences, we had no issues. In fact, my best friend during my bachelor's degree years was also my bridge partner, who was Lesbian. We both lusted after Amy Irving at the time.

My occasional dispassionate stance is because I try not to muddy my own question by injecting a presupposition of the answer. And the question of whether having two gay parents or no parents at all is better DESERVES to be settled. Because if my presupposition IS correct, a lot of religious folks who are anti-gay need to have their noses rubbed into something. But it will take a dispassionate study to be able to dig up the manure that SHOULD be rubbed in their faces for having an anti-gay stance.

Does that help you understand that I just don't think quite the way you do? And if my left-handed way of thinking seems odd, maybe you just don't recognize that sometimes I am looking at the forest; sometimes I am contemplating the trees. There is a LOT of sub-text in what I do and how I think. Forgive me if I choose not to ALWAYS share my stream of chaos that some people call consciousness. (I actually make no claims either way.)
 

Galaxiom

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G, my statement was made dispassionately in the same sense that any scientist would prefer - to make no statement that presumes something about the question being considered. And it is a question that is worth answering definitively.
Doc. I didn't take your original statement in an offensive way because, as I indicated, I didn't believe you meant it in that way. I know that you are not prejudiced against gay people.

That you of all people would use a comparison about which was "worse" is more an indication of unconscious prejudices pervasive in our cultures. ACLUDAS made the same gaff in post #24.

What I was trying to say was that we need to recognise these embedded prejudices make the lives of some people more difficult and need to be purged.
 

Uncle Gizmo

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But I am not going to walk around looking over my shoulder to see whom I might accidentally offend next. To me, "political correctness" and the culture of calling down EVERY POSSIBLE OFFENSE is merely trying to cancel ME because I don't think like YOU do. And for that, I am deeply offended because YOU are implicitly being dismissive of my own worth.

Brilliant Richard.

The culture of political correctness is difficult to come to terms with.

It is very easy to just keep your head down, but that's not the way to tackle it. It needs people to be willing to speak up.

What's the saying I'm looking for? It just takes a good man to remain quiet for evil to flourish.... something like that....

Of course, it should now be "person" :)
 

The_Doc_Man

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That you of all people would use a comparison about which was "worse" is more an indication of unconscious prejudices pervasive in our cultures.

OK, G, I will accept that there is a problem in any anti-gay culture. But the only way to fight off that kind of prejudice is to find some very cold, very hard, extremely dispassionate facts through solid research so that you can then rub that research in someone else's face.

For that explicit reason, the question of "two gay parents vs. no parents at all" (and I will add "vs. single-parent") NEEDS to be definitely analyzed so that some religious types will eventually be forced to eat their words. Is that a better statement of the sense of my statement? The only way to push back against idiots is with hard facts that force them to slink back into the darkness of their narrow little minds.

For all of the religious people here, as long as you don't harbor serious anti-gay sentiments, I consider you as non-targets for that "rubbing in the face" tactic. If you see the importance of loving others as you love yourself, and don't buy into the anti-gay rhetoric, I mostly don't otherwise care about the details of what you believe.

It's a touchy subject for me precisely because so many of my friends from 35+ years ago were harmed by stupid anti-gay prejudices. One of my gamer buddies lost his job where I was working due to a false accusation about "making a pass" at a guy who was exceptionally straight to the point of being virulently macho. It STILL hurts me that I couldn't help my friend at the time, but I wasn't there and couldn't be a witness.
 

The_Doc_Man

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What's the saying I'm looking for? It just takes a good man to remain quiet for evil to flourish.... something like that....

Often attributed to Edmund Burke, but it actually is thought to have originated from John Stuart Mill:

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
 

Uncle Gizmo

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Another quote (I shall probably miss-quote) I just heard the other day which I also think is apt,

You can never be wrong doing the right thing.... Something like that!
 

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