I identify as vaccinated

[Jon]

Well I don't know about anyone else, but I'm really enjoying reading this thread!

Hah! What are you enjoying about it Uncle?

 

[Jon]

A robust exchange between equals is always something to be admired.

We have plenty of that on this site!

 

[NauticalGent]

A robust exchange between equals is always something to be admired.

Assuming you included me in that sentence, well then thank you and I would disagree on the "equal" part in regards to intellect and ability to convey thoughts so eloquently. I am almost intimidated because I cannot argue my case without sounding like the simpleton that I am.

Edit: @Jon, I will respond to you but I am on a conference call and I need to pay attention somewhat...

 

[Jon]

I am happy to chip in and argue the opposite case if anyone wants. i.e. I ended up fighting with myself in a paper bag.

 

[Jon]

Edit: @Jon, I will respond to you but I am on a conference call and I need to pay attention somewhat...

Anytime. So long as you don't end up doing this on a conference call...

Jeffrey Toobin is fired from the New Yorker after Zoom masturbation

Jeffrey Toobin announced on Twitter Wednesday afternoon he has been given the boot from the magazine after working there for 27 years.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Edit: I know that was old news.

 

[Jon]

Regarding this said earlier by @Isaac:

Personally, the longer I live, and the more I see, the less I trust the government.

What shocked me during the pandemic was how the government was prepared to lie blatantly about mask usage. You have all heard me bang on about the "masks don't work, save these things that don't work for the medics, since they need non-working things", or comments to that effect. The fact they were prepared to do it for something that could save lives, because they thought the strategy would overall save more lives, meant my trust in what they say hit the floor.

Then, reading about the Hillary Clinton email saga, FBI Russia Collusion witch-hunt, bogus Steele email dossier, and plenty of other corrupt events in US politics, I realised that corruption is everywhere.

 

[kevlray]

I have been vaccinated for a great number of diseases over the years (thank goodness no side effects). Will I still get the disease even though I am vaccinated, possibly. Will I get sick with take a future vaccine, possibly. But I feel it is worth the risk. I have read that even though some people still got COVID after getting vaccinated, the symptoms were not as bad.

 

[AccessBlaster]

If someone can prove they have been exposed to the virus and have their own antibodies why waste the dose? Do they need 2 jabs with a possible 3rd jab later?

This is a gray area where people are being double dosed because it makes others feel safe. We have no idea what the effects will be years from now of virus overdosing.

We may get to the point like penicillin the cure becomes ineffective due to over use.

 

[Jon]

Yet without penicillin many more would be dead.

I see the Covid thing as something where we get jabs in eternity, a bit like the flu jab. What happens after 50 pandemics...do we get 50 jabs a year? Will be like a pin cushion!

 

[AccessBlaster]

So are your own antibodies worthless?

 

[Jon]

I wouldn't think so. Do antibodies decay in strength over time? Do they protect from new variants? Good questions to ask.

Edit: What level of protection do your naturally acquired antibodies provide compared to having a jab as well?

 

[AccessBlaster]

Personally, the longer I live, and the more I see, the less I trust the government. I understand that not everyone may feel that way. Perhaps it's a British vs. American cultural thing?

The complex cure and worldwide distribution seem to be easy compared to placing blame as to the origins of covid-19. Donald Trump was the only person on the planet to criticize the CCP and NIH. Now the dopes at the lamestream media are coming around to what we all suspected a year ago.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I wouldn't think so. Do antibodies decay in strength over time? Do they protect from new variants? Good questions to ask.

Edit: What level of protection do your naturally acquired antibodies provide compared to having a jab as well?

To the best of my knowledge, not all antibodies are created equal. Some vaccines are reputedly lifetime doses. Others? Not so much. The current theme I am hearing about the Pfizer doses (which is what wifey and I got) is two doses then one year later, one more "booster" and it will be good for permanent protection.

 

[Jon]

I am thinking that permanent protection would be tricky for a mutating virus. My thinking is it will become like the flu jab, with a new jab every x months/years. It will be great when they can create a vaccine for HIV.

 

[Isaac]

Tucker Carlson: Young people are being forced to get COVID vaccine, but it may harm them more than COVID

Tucker Carlson asks whether young people should get COVID vaccines, and investigates the data of vaccine side effects.

www.foxnews.com

Israeli health officials released a report showing that vaccinated young people, particularly young men, were developing a potentially fatal complication — a heart inflammation called myocarditis — and they were developing it at extremely high rates. Researchers determined that the incidence of myocarditis in vaccinated young men was fully 25 times the usual rate. Some of them died.

In Germany, authorities concluded the same thing. The German government just announced that healthy young people should avoid the vaccine. It’s too dangerous.

Just today, the FDA’s advisory panel met to discuss the rise in cardiac emergencies in healthy young people who’ve been vaccinated. So far, the rate of myocarditis is more than twice what authorities anticipated. As one Tufts Medical School professor who sits on the panel put it: "before we start vaccinating millions of adolescents and children, it’s so important to find out what the consequences are."

Studies in medical journals around the world — the Lancet, for example, as well as the Journal of the American Medical Association — have shown that COVID is not a grave threat to children and that young people don't play a significant role in spreading COVID.

 

[NauticalGent]

 

[Saphirah]

My opinion is similar to Jon. But let me maybe describe it in another way.
To make a logical decision about if you should take the vaccine or not one needs to evaluate the risks.
In a country with a good medical infrastructure like germany the death rate of covid is around 2%.
That means 1/50 people would die after getting infected with covid. Around 30% of heavy course suffer from Post Covid Symptoms, including but not limited to damaged internal organs, internal scars, asphyxia, ongoing tiredness.
So covid does cause a potential thread to my life and health. We are not saying black or white, just potential.

The vaccination is effective for 80-90% of the people, depending on the vaccination.
In addition to that the death rate of vaccinated people is lowered by around the same percentage.
So if you add the 80-90% chance of the vaccination being successfull and the 80-90% decrease in deathrate for vaccinated people your risk of dying by covid after a vaccination goes down by 98-99%. 98-99% decrease of 2% is around 0.02% if i am not mistaken.
So we would go from a deathrate of 1/50 to 1/5000.

In germany after 1 million people got vaccinated 12 had the described heart failure everyone is talking about. I do not know recent numbers but because there has not been an outcry from the media since then i assume the rate stayed the same.
12/1.000.000 is 0.000012%.
Those medicines a few people mentioned above which proved to be fatal were mostly in times where people had no computers and only basic understanding of medicine. In addition to that these medicines were in fact medicine, but not vaccines. That is because it is really hard to make a vaccine lethal, if you have no bad intent. Vaccines are basically dead virus components. Because of the amount the body has to deal with you can see a small reaction sometimes and people will feel tired. But vaccines are not harmfull to our bodies.
When talking about the new type of vaccine, it does not alter the DNA, as quite a few people think. It provides the body with specific instructions on how to produce the covid antibodies. The RNA can not harm the body by itself.
And as long as your antibodies do not damage the body, the vaccine won't either.

In addition to that we need to consider our health system. If people do not vaccinate there are 2 options. Either we do a lockdown again to reduce the spread which would cost the industry billions or the health system will crumble, which would significantly increase the percentage of death.
Of cause the world is not black and white, and most of the people are getting a vaccine.
So what about it if a few people do not vaccinate? I think ignoring responsibility is a flaw in human nature. Let us take climate change for example. If every country says they will reduce their carbon dioxite emissions, why can't my country say that they don't?
The others will improve the climate anyway, so there is no point right?


So all in all i think it is irresponsible to say that you do not wish to receive a vaccine. The fatal risk of not taking the vaccine is much higher than the risk of taking the vaccine and you are risking to harm you and the people around you.

 

[Saphirah]

So let's talk about my own experience.
After over 1 years of constant lockdown even during the lockdown our local index was at 150-200.
I do not know if you have a different system for indicating the infection rate, but 150 is high.
Now after they started vaccinating people the mortality rate is at constant 0 for my city and the new infection rate is around 18.
And my local government just started to hand out the vaccines to the masses 1 week ago.
(Before they had people over 60, nurses and system relevant people.)

So i can definitely see the effect of the vaccines. And we had no deaths of covid vaccines in our surroundings.

 

[Jon]

@Saphirah How you reasoned your argument out is exactly how I think and try to calculate the risks to form my conclusions. Nice to see someone else do the same.

I would like to add that we are talking about a kind of binary situation here: death or no death. But it is non-binary (I just had to get that phrase in there!). We are on a continuum of health. 100% healthy to 100% unhealthy (i.e. dead!). Covid can take your life, but it can also give you long term adverse effects, some of which are irreversible. And I think we shouldn't underestimate the impact of mutations further down the line. If we just think of what Covid is today, we are not preparing for what Covid could mutate into tomorrow. In just a year, the virus has already become way more infectious. My fear is in several mutations time, it becomes even more infectious, more deadly and more resistant to vaccination. The end of the world is nigh.

 

[Isaac]

That means 1/50 people would die after getting infected with covid. Around 30% of heavy course suffer from Post Covid Symptoms, including but not limited to damaged internal organs, internal scars, asphyxia, ongoing tiredness.
So covid does cause a potential thread to my life and health. We are not saying black or white, just potential.

The vaccination is effective for 80-90% of the people, depending on the vaccination.
In addition to that the death rate of vaccinated people is lowered by around the same percentage.
So if you add the 80-90% chance of the vaccination being successfull and the 80-90% decrease in deathrate for vaccinated people your risk of dying by covid after a vaccination goes down by 98-99%. 98-99% decrease of 2% is around 0.02% if i am not mistaken.
So we would go from a deathrate of 1/50 to 1/5000.

Help me understand your way of thinking about those numbers.

You mentioned 1/50 death rate but I think you forgot that's if you get infected with COVID.
The number I would find more interesting to the 'risk calculation' is the death rate from COVID for anyone - not just anyone already infected with COVID. (Since it is very possible that I never get infected with COVID).

I think you will find the "death rate" to be MUCH lower than 1/50....

It's also interesting to me that you agree with Jon, who used--as a big part of his argument--the following:

all governments are advising us to take the vaccine. Why? Because they have teams of virologists and medical experts working on the risk vs rewards.

and

It isn't just my position, but the position of all governments throughout the world and most scientists who specialise in this area.

...... But once Germany has now said "do not give the vaccine to children, it's too dangerous and not worth the risk", we are now told to switch the logic. "Don't listen to that - they're wrong".

First, maybe Germany is using the more meaningful number of Rate of Covid Deaths vs. all people (which is what you should be using), not "given that someone is already infected with COVID". (You should take into account that many people won't get covid at all).
But there's even more! You need to take into account the rate of CHILDREN getting covid, and CHILDREN'S DEATH RATE.

I believe that number will be.....significantly less than 1 out of 50........
According to here, the COVID mortality rate of children in FL 1-15 is 0.009%. However, that (just like your 1/50 number) is "given that they already have COVID" - I could not readily find the % of children who BECOME INFECTED with COVID--which makes sense, since we have no way of actually knowing everyone who gets infected unless we were testing people every day. However, this site indicates that children seem to make up about 13% of all COVID cases to the best of their knowledge. That's one out of 8.

So maybe the percent of ALL CHILDREN who will DIE OF COVID is something roughly along the lines of, maybe, 0.00117.

I may have done some calculations a little bit wrong, but you get the point - the death rate of children for COVID is FAR LESS than 1 in 50.

And you're only considering myocardial infarctions in Germany--don't forget about the blood clots from Astra Zeneca.

Lastly, remember that it takes time to discover negative impacts from the vaccine. Time. It took about 40 years to realize that Ranitidine was causing many people to die of cancer. 40 years. You have 3-5 months of vaccine data.

The fact that they are just now discovering some of these fatal effects shouldn't cause you to conclude "Oh, great! It's only those!". Rather, it should cause a person to conclude "They keep discovering new side effects. What will they discover next month?"

Relying on 3 mo. of data without factoring in the likelihood of more impacts being discovered (since they keep finding more), isn't REALLY an accurate assessment of the risk, IMHO.

That's why I respect people who decided either way..........And, thankfully, COVID is being successfully beat down with about half of any population receiving the vaccine. Those who decided to be in the Test Group. (Including me, by the way).