Is USA directly entering in the war, good or bad? (1 Viewer)

[The_Doc_Man]

I used to do pretty well with scotch & soda, but some years ago, my liver and I decided that we needed to part ways with anything for which one of the descriptions involved the word "proof" and they WEREN'T talking about anything that would stand up in court.

 

[Pat Hartman]

If they treat Iran as they treated Gaza, we are in for a huge world war. If they can convince themselves to exercise restraint, that will be preferable.

You show restraint when you need to build a bomb shelter in your home and your children need to play in underground bunkers to shield them from bombs falling from the sky on a daily basis. Every time you leave your family you wonder if the next bomb will take them from you. You need to talk to an Israeli who lives under those conditions. I have. Gaza is lucky I wasn't in charge on October 8th. Enough is enough and Oct 7th was too much. Meir was 100% correct. There is no negotiating with someone who's intention is to kill you and who teaches their children how to count by counting dead Jews. The difference between the Palestinians and Iran is that the Iranians are not living as refugees, people without a country so their hatred of Jews is not a daily part of their lives. That means there is hope for a reconciliation since the rift is not personal.

It was a snide remark. Some folks think is the US getting Isreal to do our bidding, others think its the other way around

Israel has done a pretty good job of defending themselves from the daily attacks from their neighbors but they couldn't finish the removal of the nucellar threat themselves. Given that we would have been target #2 for the nuclear option, Trump stepped up and took action. You can't say he didn't give Iran multiple chances to come to the table and work things out. Once your enemy has decided the only solution is your death, they become impossible to reason with.

 

[arnelgp]

This is what I get on FB.

 

[SachAccess]

Thankfully the war is stopped now!

 

[Isaac]

your children need to play in underground bunkers to shield them from bombs falling from the sky on a daily basis. Every time you leave your family you wonder if the next bomb will take them from you. You need to talk to an Israeli who lives under those conditions

You do realize those words describe life in Gaza much more than life in Israel, right?
I'm all for a war when needed to terminate enemy combatants, but simply getting revenge by a prolonged effort having nothing to do with enemy combatants, destroying every last man woman and child's house, school, hospital, and food sources is not appropriate IMO.

The idea is to win the war, not cruelly destroy the lives of all the citizens. Or at least, should be.

 

[SachAccess]

I respect all the countries involved. Please correct me if am wrong.

I1 saying to I2 that you can not have XYZ.
I1 has it. A saying I2 can not have it but A too has it.
A and I1 saying having a XYZ is a risk to humanity.
P has XYZ. A says P is a fantastic country.
P is known for doing things which are not good for humanity.
R, C and N has XYZ and can provide XYZ to I2.
Now if I3 takes same stance against P what will be the advice from I1 and A.
And who decides that who can have XYZ and who can not have it.
Getting confused here.

My post is related only about XYZ. I am not going to other things which I1 or I2 or A does or have done in the past.

 

[Isaac]

Hmm. That was dizzying to follow but I think I got the gist of it.
This is one of the unfortunate realities of the modern day that we have to live with and cannot seem to avoid.

Having nuclear weapons while simultaneously saying another one cannot have nuclear weapons is one of the uncomfortable, but unavoidable things.

Iran is a nation that has been actively trying to hurt and kill Americans and westerners for many years, with varying degrees of success, too.

If a crazy man comes into the park where my children are playing and threatens, and hurts them repeatedly, if I have a gun, I'm going to stop that person, and it won't bother me at all to be 'hypocritical' and say I can have a gun and you can't. In that moment I'll be unconcerned what people's opinions are, I'll just know this dangerous, murderous person [Iran's schoolchildren chant Death to America] will not be allowed to have a gun under my watch.

The most powerful people will end up deciding who can or cannot have nuclear weapons. Let's hope that countries which generally want people to be free and prosperous (not those which crave the termination or genocide of their neighbors) are the ones who stay in the 'powerful' group.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I'm all for a war when needed to terminate enemy combatants, but simply getting revenge by a prolonged effort having nothing to do with enemy combatants, destroying every last man woman and child's house, school, hospital, and food sources is not appropriate IMO.

However, as a point of discussion, see the movie Ender's Game and consider perceived threat levels. When you have every reason to believe that your enemy honestly and seriously intends to wipe you off the face of the earth - AND that enemy swears that this intention is going to be in place FOREVER, how long do you try to dissuade that enemy before you permanently eliminate that threat? How long will it take you to decide that, like Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort, "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

 

[Pat Hartman]

You do realize those words describe life in Gaza much more than life in Israel, right?

Who breaks every peace treaty they sign? Israel is fighting back. Israel is in no way responsible for this conflict, you do realize this, don't you? They are defending themselves and they got serious about it on October 8th. If you don't understand that, I suggest a history lesson going back to the formation of Israel out of what was left of Trans-Jordan in 1948. Pay attention to what happened to the parts of the Palestinian Mandate that were assigned to Arab (Palestinian) control when the British left. Tell me where on the map the "Palestinian" state that was created at that time is. Oh, you can't find it? What happened to it? You really need to up your history game to get on the right side of this conflict. Keep in mind that the Jews agreed to all the proposed divisions of land the British offered and the Arabs rejected all of them out of hand because they insisted on 100% to them 0% to the Jews so the British decided on how to divide the land when they turned out the lights. They gave Gaza and Sumerian and Judea to the Arabs.

Israel isn't ruled by terrorists and they don't teach their children to count by counting dead "Palestinians". Israel is willing to live and let live. The Arabs rejected them. The Palestinians want all Jews DEAD. The only good Jew is a dead Jew and so they have made it their life's work to make that happen. It is Hamas who steals food and medical and financial donations from the population. They don't need it all though so they sell back what they don't need to civilians. Then they take all the money they steal and instead of investing in infrastructure to make the lives of the residents of Gaza better, they spend it on bombs.

destroying every last man woman and child's house, school, hospital, and food sources is not appropriate IMO.

Israel targets military objectives. It does NOT target schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings the way Hamas does. Hamas ONLY targets civilians in order to instill terror into the civilian population. Hamas, in violation of the Geneva convention places military objectives within the confines of schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings. Therefore Israel gives them warning to evacuate when it targets one of those types of objectives.

The Jews have done everything they could to coexist with the Arabs since 1948 except give up and lay down dead. Every Arab who stayed in what ended up as Israeli territory, became a full citizen and therefore entitized to vote, own property and businesses, serve in the Knesset, and serve in the military. They did refuse to give back the property that the Arabs who believed their leadership and fled left abandoned.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The idea is to win the war, not cruelly destroy the lives of all the citizens. Or at least, should be.

What EXACTLY was the raid of Oct 7th? Would you categorize a music festival or private home as a military target? Does any legitimate military take civilian hostages or is that the act of a terrorist?

BTW, are you aware that Hamas forces the civilians to live in their military outposts in an attempt to keep Israel from targeting them?

 

[Isaac]

However, as a point of discussion, see the movie Ender's Game and consider perceived threat levels. When you have every reason to believe that your enemy honestly and seriously intends to wipe you off the face of the earth - AND that enemy swears that this intention is going to be in place FOREVER, how long do you try to dissuade that enemy before you permanently eliminate that threat? How long will it take you to decide that, like Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort, "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

I'd say definitely eliminate the threat, I just struggle to see how that corresponds to what they have actually done, in some part.
Eliminate Hamas, go in and destroy weapons caches etc., but to spend 2 years just razing the place to the ground and starving 2 million people without so much as toilet paper or anesthetics or food, is just wrong and has little to do with eliminating any threat, other than the threat to their ego.

 

[Isaac]

Israel targets military objectives. It does NOT target schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings the way Hamas does.

And yet, schools hospitals and apartment buildings are all razed to the ground. You can't tell me you haven't seen the pictures and videos, cuz they're everywhere - that's why nearly everyone at this point is giving Israel a stern look, even their typical supporters. Eventually you'll have to come 'round and admit that razing the entire Strip to the ground has nothing to do with a "conflict" or "eliminating the enemy", unless genocide is your actual goal

 

[The_Doc_Man]

And yet, schools hospitals and apartment buildings are all razed to the ground.

And yet, Hamas builds THEIR infrastructure under those schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings, thus guaranteeing that if you want to get to Hamas, you have to go through their civilian shields. Is this the behavior of a civilized opponent?

Eventually you'll have to come 'round and admit that razing the entire Strip to the ground has nothing to do with a "conflict" or "eliminating the enemy"

No, I won't have to come around. You STILL have no fair comparison. If/when Hamas stops hiding behind their civilians and faces their enemy in open combat, THEN we have a comparison to consider. The people of Gaza actually know how to end this... toss out Hamas. Toss them to the wolves. There is no simpler way to end their suffering. Just get rid of the Hamas monsters. Israel will follow those targets. That's all it will take to move the bull's eye off of Gaza.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I1 has it.

I1's citizens do not regularly march in the streets chanting "Death to I2". I1 does not break peace treaties and out of the blue start lobbing bombs at hospitals and schools and apartment buildings in I2.

There is no equivalence between I1 and I2. I2 has made it a political platform to totally annihilate I1. Therefore one might assume that should I2 obtain a nuclear bomb, they would immediately use it to destroy I1. I1 on the other hand, has made no such threats and would like very much to live and let live.

Please use a little common sense in your arguments and don't make equivalence where there is none. I1 is not a threat to the world at large or its neighbors specifically. I2 is a clear and present danger. It has threatened total annihilation to I1 and also to the US. It is currently threatening to shut off oil from the Persian Gulf by blocking the Strait of Hormuz which indirectly threatens us all.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And yet, schools hospitals and apartment buildings are all razed to the ground.

You bet your sweet bippy they are. That is the intention of Hamas. They are girly-boys who have to hide behind the skirts of women and children and sick people.

So, your alternative is what? Israel should roll over and play dead? They should not attempt to take out military targets of Hamas wherever they are placed? REALLY, What is your solution? Just let Hamas rain down terror on Israeli civilians every day? Why are you not lobbying for Hamas to stop?????????????????????? Israel is not the problem here.

Have you figured out what happened to the land the British awarded to the Arabs in 1948? Where did that pesky country of Palestine go to? I've described what happened to it multiple times.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Eliminate Hamas, go in and destroy weapons caches etc.,

So, now you want the Jews to have to kill the civilian shields personally? If the civilians of Gaza were not forced by Hamas to be shields, they wouldn't be harmed and this war would have been over last year. They all could evacuate to safe areas but Hamas won't let them.

Why should Israel be forced to put boots on the ground (which they have done and the world was in an uproar over it) and risk their own military? Do you think their civilians want that? Would you if you were Israeli? As far as Israel is concerned, the citizens of Gaza are only partially innocent. They made their bed. They can lie in it. OR, they can kill Hamas themselves and free themselves from being held hostage.

 

[Isaac]

And yet, Hamas builds THEIR infrastructure under those schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings, thus guaranteeing that if you want to get to Hamas, you have to go through their civilian shields. Is this the behavior of a civilized opponent?



No, I won't have to come around. You STILL have no fair comparison. If/when Hamas stops hiding behind their civilians and faces their enemy in open combat, THEN we have a comparison to consider. The people of Gaza actually know how to end this... toss out Hamas. Toss them to the wolves. There is no simpler way to end their suffering. Just get rid of the Hamas monsters. Israel will follow those targets. That's all it will take to move the bull's eye off of Gaza.

I don't think hardly any of the people have that power.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I don't think hardly any of the people have that power

They might, they might not. In the narrow question of how to end this, I didn't say that the people of Gaza have the power. I just named potential solutions. But in fact, they do have knowledge, and knowledge is power. Just advise Israeli forces where Hamas is staying. However, there actually IS another solution - of sorts. Iran is the financier of so many of the atrocities committed by Hamas. But if Iran's economy continues to tank (currently, inflation has 1 US dollar worth 6 digits of Iranian dinars, I believe), pretty soon they won't be able to fund anything either. Iran says they will shut down the Straits of Hormuz - but that is the path through which their last money-maker comes - oil. If the inflation in Iran gets bad enough, we might not have to try to trigger a regime change. Economics will trigger a change for us.

 

[SachAccess]

Please use a little common sense in your arguments and don't make equivalence where there is none.

My sincere apologies to you if my post hurt you in any way. It is not my intention. As I said earlier, I do not have study on these issues I am just trying to understand from the actual people rather being dependent on media or social media.