Islam - Pure and Simple

I barely have a knowledge of world affairs going back to 16:00 - that makes me one of the less insular folk.

Bare in mind I was in the pub at 17:00 till I went to sleep at 10:30!
 
The Sun orbits (along with it's planetary system) the milky way galaxy and completes it in approximately over 200 million years. Hence I would have thought that the Qur'an IS clever. There is no record of anyone that I know in the past that said the Sun had an orbit. Don't you?
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As this is not a quote from the Qur'an but a statement of modern knowledge(1999 I think), why do you attribute the Qur'an with this knowledge? I said that all the old religions thought the sun orbited the Earth, you say

But the Qur'an doesn't say that the Sun orbits the Earth. People can say what they want. What matters is what scripture says. If the Qur'an, in this case, said that the Sun orbits the Earth, then you could justify your point, not otherwise surely.

But It does only say that the Moon and Sun have orbits, thus it is valid to assume that the writer of the Qur'an simply observed the rising and setting of these and thus made the statement you quoted.

I will not pursue this as I have long experience that shows that when one argues with a believer of any faith they merely quote the relevent holy book as "fact" or put whatever interpretation they wish on the words.

I am happy for you that you are comfortable in your faith, and admire that you have researched and published work on it, it takes guts to go public, and I wish you well in your enterprise.

Brian
 
I'm merely saying that the interpretation I'm placing on the Sun's orbit as given in the Qur'an, is simply that the Sun has an orbit. I simply answered your question on a scientific basis separately and not suggesting that the Qur'an is saying that. I only wish to place an interpration to any Qur'an verse which matches. I

Interestingly, there is also a verse that tells that the earth rotates. Need to look that up.

In conclusion, there are many Qur'anic verses which indicate, at whatever detail each verse holds, that it matches science.

Many thanks for your best wishes.
 
Let me start by saying that I respect Aziz for his efforts in educating others to his religion, given that at the moment, some extremists are giving Muslims some really bad press.

I will point out that in history, the Crusaders and the Inquisitioners gave Christians a lot of bad press.

Aziz, your beliefs are yours. I don't share them but don't disrespect them either. My problem with the Bible, the Quran, and the Baghavad Vita are all the same. They are accounts written by people who, while educated as well as possible in their times, were woefully non-scientific. The people who witnessed the events that shaped the documents are long dead. The people who TRANSLATED the documents from older to newer forms are mostly dead (with exceptions such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and other similar findings.)

However, I must point out that your question regarding evolution and the apparently abrupt mutations are based on fossil evidence that is subject to more than one interpretation. It is not necessarily that one species died out and another took its place in a sudden matter. Some evidence has been found that we probably have a little bit of Neanderthal in us. But the continuity is there in the MITOCHONDRIAL DNA. The "tree of life" is now capable of showing chains of mutations as little as one gene at a time in cases. So the evidence for evolution is VERY strongly consistent.

Your attempt to show that the Quran describes creation better than the Bible suffers the same fate as the Bible does. Non-scientific witnesses who cannot be questioned, no physical evidence of creation, and poor science in those who try to disprove evolution.

Still, your post takes a different turn in some ways. By showing that the Quran is not incompatible with science, you make a better argument than some I have seen. But the logical conclusion is that the authors still anthropomorphised the forces that they believed were the cause of creation - because they didn't know any better.

Aziz, my beliefs and yours aren't necessarily compatible - yet that does not mean they must lead to physical conflict. And that is where religious extremists of ANY RELIGION WHATSOEVER have their terrible failing. They can't live with differences from THEIR opinions.

I offer you this statement: We can agree to disagree in peace if we so choose. Whether you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, or some other religion, I find that the old "Golden Rule" still applies. Treat others as you wish them to treat you. So Azis, may your days be filled with peace, learning, and prosperity.
 
Scripture given to prophets Abraham (Sahifa), Moses (Torah, TEN Commandments), David (Zaboor), Jesus (Injil), Muhammad (Qur'an) are the authorship of God although most of these scriptures unfortunately have gone through change by man except for the Qur'an and the TEN Commandments. Both of these remain in their pristine form.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was not able to read or write.

As far as evolution is concerned, try this link: -

http://www.ymsite.com/books/mb_om/default.htm

Thank you for your good wishes. I agree with you that we have our own views, and it is only through dialogue can we live in peace and harmony amongst each other.
 
After a brief scan of that link, I find that the old "complexity" argument pops up again. That argument says life is too complex to have evolved by itself. So the author denies that the complexity of life can just happen, but posits a massively greater complexity to cause it to happen? This violates Occam's Razor at the very least.

Aziz, as I would with anyone who at least takes a rational attempt at any subject, I offer you my respect. Though I can disagree with your conclusions I don't dispute that the questions are valid. However, I wonder if part of the problem is that we would prefer to be the playthings of a mischievous God rather than the result of a cosmic accident - because we have a deep-seated need to have a purpose.

Therein lies the ultimate question: Purpose. If there is a God or an Allah or - heck, pick your favorite pantheon - then we might indeed have a purpose. But if we are all accidents, that isn't so appealing to some - because then we have no purpose. We just exist. Sometimes, that is cold comfort. Yet it is an important question.

Consider the song "Imagine" by John Lennon. Imagine all the people living for today. Imagine there is no heaven - and no hell.

It changes so many things if you take away the promise of justice in another life for the evil people of the world. Then justice in a courtroom becomes a different matter. Then forgiveness becomes more personal - and more meaningful. It changes the meaning of prayer. It makes fanaticism even more useless than it already is.

The only advice I've ever really found useful in scripture was "God helps those who helps themselves." The rest of it is just a serious case of the "ascendancy of me and mine over thee and thine." Moral one-upmanship. False pride in one's religion as the "TRUE" faith - and the rest of you folks are going to Hell if you disagree with me.

I remember a story my Mom told me about some little snip of a girl in her office. My parents were married by a Justice of the Peace rather than a minister. Won't bother to go into why. But anyway, this stupid little snip told my mother that because she hadn't gotten married in a church, I was illegitimate. Mom invited her to the back alley. The girl tried to file a union grievance but the shop steward told her she was on her own this time.

I remember being told in school by some idiot who believed what his parochial school teacher had told him... that all non Catholics would burn in Hell. And for a long time I wrestled with that statement. Until finally I realized that all too often, small-spirited people use religion as an excuse to be cruel. And after that, I stopped listening to the hate-mongers.

Aziz, you are not promoting hate. For this I thank you and respect you. In many other forums, I have found folks of a religious inclination who bristle when I don't agree with their views. If you and I can reach no agreement on religion, at least we can hope to retain the most important part of civilization - civility to others.

Have a good evening, aziz. I've got to help the wife with some digital camera work. See you later.
 
I will point out that in history, the Crusaders and the Inquisitioners gave Christians a lot of bad press.

I remember largely ignorant americans funding catholic terrorism here in the UK.
 
As a Muslim, I believe we will all be judged by God on the Day of Judgement. I accept that not everyone will agree with that. I hope everyone makes it and we can sit together and have a laugh.
 
The only advice I've ever really found useful in scripture was "God helps those who helps themselves." The rest of it is just a serious case of the "ascendancy of me and mine over thee and thine." Moral one-upmanship. False pride in one's religion as the "TRUE" faith - and the rest of you folks are going to Hell if you disagree with me.

Hey Doc_Man,

I hate to point this out but "God helps those who helps themselves" is not in scripture either, so I guess the "only advice" you've found in scripture is not there so now there is no advice from scripture you can take.:(

Shane
 
Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom (hikmah) and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! Thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.
Qur’an – Surah an-Nahl (The Bee) 16:125 See also 12:108.

43. “Go, both of you (Moses & Aaron), to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;
44. “But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah).”
Qur’an - Surah Ta Ha 20:43-4

Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:104 See also verses 3:110, 5:2 and 7:199-202.
 
Aziz: Your quote reminds me of something similar in concept in the Bible. Regarding when a person of different beliefs appears in a community. Couldn't quote it exactly if my life depended on it, but basically it says to be kind and give the person a chance to learn. Don't condemn when there is a chance to teach instead. But don't condemn when the teaching doesn't work right away, either.

Shane... if that "God helps those who help themselves" quote isn't Biblical, my mom's preacher lied. Back when I was a kid, I trusted him. Obviously, I no longer do so.
 
Shane... if that "God helps those who help themselves" quote isn't Biblical, my mom's preacher lied. Back when I was a kid, I trusted him. Obviously, I no longer do so.

It's one of several that's quoted as being in the Bible but it's not there. It makes for a pretty good quote though, just can't back it up with the Bible. As far as your Mom's preacher goes. I understand. Unfortunately, that is too many people's story
 
Hey Doc_Man,

I hate to point this out but "God helps those who helps themselves" is not in scripture either, so I guess the "only advice" you've found in scripture is not there so now there is no advice from scripture you can take.:(

Shane

Here is where it came from (Aesop's fables).

HERCULES AND THE WAGGONER

A Waggoner was driving his team along a muddy lane with a full load behind them, when the wheels of his waggon sank so deep in the mire that no efforts of his horses could move them. As he stood there, looking helplessly on, and calling loudly at intervals upon Hercules for assistance, the god himself appeared, and said to him, "Put your shoulder to the wheel, man, and goad on your horses, and then you may call on Hercules to assist you. If you won't lift a finger to help yourself, you can't expect Hercules or any one else to come to your aid."

Heaven helps those who help themselves.
 
Here's what the Qur'an says about the creation of MAN.

“Verily, We created them and strengthened (referring to man’s physical constitution) all of them. And when We willed, We replaced them completely by people (qawm) who were of the same kind.”
Qur’an - Surah al-An`aam (The Cattle) 6:133

15. “O mankind! You are the ones who are in need of Allah. And Allah! He is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise.
16. If He wanted, he could destroy you and bring about a new creation.
17. And that is not hard for Allah.”

Qur’an - Surah Faatir (The Originator) 35:15-17

7. (God) is the One who created you, then fashioned you harmoniously and in due proportion;
8. Into whatsoever form He willed, He made you out of components.

Qur’an - Surah al-Infitaar (The Believers) 82:7-8 See also 87:2.

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The process of human reproduction is also discussed in the Qur’an. The spermatic liquid is formed by various secretions from the male human body, which come from the following glands: -

a. testes or generative glands - produces spermatozoon’s, the fertilising cells
b. seminal vesicle glands – these organs are reservoirs of spermatozoon’s and are placed near the prostate gland; they also secrete their own liquid but it does not contain any fertilising agents
c. prostate gland – this secrets a liquid which gives the sperm its creamy texture
d. bulb urethral glands – secrete a clear fluid known as Cowper's fluid and it’s biological function is to prepare the urinary tract for the passage of semen and neutralize acidity due to any residual urine

We are also aware, from biological science, that only a tiny portion of the fertilising semen is required to fertilise the female egg. Once the female egg has been fertilised in the fallopian tube, it descends to lodge inside the uterine wall; this is called the implantation of the egg. Interestingly this is one of the features that medical staff looks for in IVF treatment. Failure in this, results in an unsuccessful pregnancy.

“Verily, We fashioned man from a small quantity of mingled (amchaj) liquids . . .”
Qur’an - Surah al-Insaan (Man) 76:2

37. “Was (man) not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out?
38. After that, he was something which clings; then God fashioned him in due proportion and harmoniously.”

Qur’an - Surah al-Qiyaama (The Resurrection) 75:37-8

The further development process of the foetus is explained in the following Qur’anic verses.

12. We fashioned man from the quintessence (sulatat) of a clay (tiyn - water and earth).
13. Then placed him as a drop (nutfah - of seed) in a place of rest, firmly fixed (qararin makin);
14. We fashioned the thing which clings (alaq) into a lump of chewed flesh (mudrat) and We fashioned the chewed flesh (mudrat) into bones and We clothed the bones with intact flesh (lahm), and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

Qur’an - Surah al-Mu`minoon (The Cleaving) 23:12-4 See also 77:20-22.

The father determines the gender of the unborn child. At the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) the reverse was the normal belief i.e. the mother determined the gender of the child.

45. “(God) fashioned the two of a pair, the male and the female,
46. from a small quantity (of sperm) when it is poured out.”

Qur’an – Surah an-Najm (The Star) 53:45-6

Then He made of him two kinds, the male and the female.
Qur’an - Surah al-Qiyaama (The Resurrection) 75:39
 
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