jwindon: You're not doing your homework!

[raskew]

Just responded to one of your postings, then went back to look at the results, and discovered that you're "shot-gunning" questions to this forum.

Hopefully the idea behind a forum is that an individual diligently exhausts his/her resources/knowledge and still can't find the answer so he/she posts a inquiry.

Conversely, the idea is not that a forum is a substitute for research and/or help files.

Please review your research methods or, conversely, provide a billing address.

Bob

 

[jwindon]

I am offended. How do you know what steps I have taken prior to my posting. I have been reading posts for a few weeks now and have seen a good deal of "net working" going on.

In addition, I too respond to those posts that I can supply help to. Is it too much to learn from the questions of others. I would not object to someone learning from my questions.

It is not your place to judge me.

 

[raskew]

Glad to see that you are offended because I intended to be offensive.

Once again, someone who posts 3-4 inquiries per day is not doing their homework!

Bob

 

[lscheer]

I'd have to side with j here, and feel that raskew is *somewhat* out of line...though I sometimes find it annoying that some of the posts here seemingly so basic, and could be answered just as quickly/effectively by MSAccess Help or Bible or whatever, many many people on this forum use it as a means of networking, and not for very serious posts. I have been using this forum for months whenever I come upon problems that I can't seem to solve, and though I typically go to Help first, sometimes my searches come up fruitless. Other times, i am drawn to the prospect of getting varied responses to my problems, which is one of the BENEFITS of this forum...something one person suggests may or may not work for you, and something another person suggests may work better. It's always nice to have different perspectives. Shouldn't we all be a little more mature than pointing fingers? Last I checked, this was a public forum, and I didn't see any rules as to how frequently one can use this BB and for what purposes, other than non-solicitory. Cheers!

 

[Rich]

Mmmm, I don't want to get involved in the lecture part but I have to say that if the question hadn't been asked, we wouldn't have gotten the excellent response from the member formally known as Talismanic (but now reverted to maiden name as result of divorce perhaps?). I've never done any work regarding the internet so I guess I'm cheating by learning from the response

 

[jobux]

As someone new to Access programming, I feel I have to respond to this. I've posted a few times, and gotten maybe one helpful response while other questions get dozens of answers. Maybe the fact that some of my questions seem somewhat rudimentary to many of you causes this, but I don't think I'm the only person here who has found Access Help useless.
As for the Access Bible, it is a good starting point but it doesn't help out w/ things like parameter query criteria etc. For someone such as myself, who has no previous programming experience, it's quite disheartening to see the apathy, and even some disdain, for us "newbies." Also, I seriously doubt there are too many people looking for "quick-fixes," sometimes though, when deadline pressure hits, and you can't seem to get the damn thing to work the way you want it to, yeah you shoot out a question and hope that someone can provide you w/ that silver bullet.
Beyond that, I can't seem to figure some of the people on this board out - especially those who whine about billing for info. The IT downturn has hit us all hard, especially on this side of the pond, but that's no excuse for trying to guilt-trip people into thinking they should be paying you for a few nuggets of information.

[This message has been edited by jobux (edited 09-04-2001).]

 

[lscheer]

I didn't mean to belittle those of us (yes US) who come to this forum looking for help to seemingly basic questions. I still consider myself relatively new to the wide world of Access, and database operations in general, and have often found enlightening advice here (sometimes I have to search through other's posts), though, I, too have found that when I most need help, I struggle to get it. Those "silver bullets" are exactly why I frequent this site...

...We are all new at something once...

 

[jwindon]

Thank you all for your support. I HAVE indeed spent countless hours on the forum. Most of the time, I'm reading or answering what questions I feel I can. It just so happens that now and again, I too feel the need to ask for help. The Help files HAVE many times provided me with information, however, re: requery, I found only tables listing the components (object, argument, etc.) I learn by example for the most part. There is no example in the Help file. And someone unfamiliar to programming does not just "grasp" the idea of objects, methods, etc. Please forgive my ignorance!

In addition, I will offer up my thanks to all that have either directly or indirectly contributed to a new wealth of knowledge. Pat - for lessons on tables and their relationships. R. Hicks for the (wonderful) option of automation, Talismanic / BukHix for showing me a way to see Code that I could learn by and for putting up with my curiousity of asp., and to Rich, Alexandre and Jack Cowley and any other of the wonderful few who visit the forum primarily to help others.

My idea of the forum is basically "group discussion". One person has the question and we all contribute answers AND! questions within the confines of a group. Only then does true learning take place.

Perhaps my tormentor had a better teacher, or more money for a good book. I don't know and truly don't care. It seems a pity that one should feel compelled to put themselves above another, exspecially NOT knowing THAT person AT ALL! As for billing me for services, I will be happy to provide my address for the invoice upon receiving a copy of the service contract which states that my questions MUST be answered.

That's all I have to say about that. I will continue my posts, although I will have to admit, I feel ashamed now to do that. I hope I don't have to.


[This message has been edited by jwindon (edited 09-04-2001).]

 

[ScpttCybak]

i just wish people would search the forum before posting. 99% of the time the questions have already been answered in some way, shape or form.

[This message has been edited by ScpttCybak (edited 09-04-2001).]

 

[KAllen31]

As member (still newbie though) I can understand general frustration when a post is posted here that has previously been posted numberous times. I do have to say that the search function on this forum is decent (I wish I could say the same about about Access Help, the help section is good, once you get comfortable w/ Access, but before that I think it confused me, more than it did help.)

I also want to add that this forum is as much of my morning routine as reading the papers. I try not to post too much in any one forum, but still enjoy coming here and getting tips, and communicating w/ other people who enjoy Access as much as I do. There are not too many people in my local network who use Access, so it's a treat to know that there are other people out there who get as excited about a query that "Really Cranks" as I do.

Anyway, enough gab. I just want to thank all of the newbies (for asking questions, I may have wanted to ask but didn't), and of corse the pro's, who take the time to teach us, even if the question is really simple and basic.

 

[BukHix]

Topic: jwindon: You're not doing your homework!

This is homework? No wonder I have so much trouble with Access. I hate homework!!!

Actually I just chimed in to plead guilty to the charge. I rarely use Access help. It never seems to answer my question and I end up in a continuous Help loop. Although I must say that it's not as bad as the MSDN library help for Visual Studio, ever tried to find anything useful with that?

For me, I usualy do a search on these forum to find a similar problem, if I find nothing I post the question, and pray that the person who answers has enough patience to stick with me to the end.

I present exhibit A: Help with string parsing/manipulation Part 2.

Anyway, my point is, when you do not come from a programming background a lot of this goes right over your head which I think explains a lot of frequent posts from AWF/Access newbies. If you look at my (Talismanic) history here you will see that in the beginning I asked three or four questions a week and most of them were basic or could've been found in Access Help. The fact that members from this board took the time to answer my dumb questions is what kept me coming back for more. That is also the reason I spend so much time here answering as many questions as I can. I am at the point in my Access Trek that I can give a little back to the AWF community, so to speak. I believe the ratio of questions that I ask now is much less then the questions I answer.

By the way, thanks to everyone in this forum that got me to where I am today because, beleive me I did RTFM but it didn't help me any.

Oh yea and I am on a steady path to reclaim my former post count.

[This message has been edited by BukHix (edited 09-05-2001).]

 

[capri]

I have to agree with most of the others who don't think jwindon is out of line.

Personally I have learned a thing or two from her questions and also her responses to others questions.

Certainly I think there have been others who come here simply for free help and never bothered to "give back" but I won't go into names as you never know what situation a person is in and perhaps they can't at this point in time.

I was basically thrown into it once I suggested to my manager that the assignment he gave me would be best done in Access. No one here knows a thing about it and the help desk does not support it. Without this site I would never have accomplished as much as I have. I've basically learned from scrath since April although I did understand the concept of what a database was capable of.

Newbies don't always realize the search feature is here until someone mentions it in a post they happen to read. Also it is sometimes difficult determining the right criteria to find the results you want. If I key something in and it spits back 200 topics, I certainly don't have the time to read thru all 200 hoping one will give the answer I am looking for. Then there is always the time factor. I'm sure everyone at one point or another is under pressure to produce results very quickly. Sometimes the only way is to post a question.

Access help is only useful if you know what you are looking for. Often I read a question from someone and they can explain what they want to do, and once someone suggest the name of what they are attempting eg parameter queries then they can go from there and figure it out. If any of you have switched from Lotus to Excel you can understand what I mean. Being used to Lotus terminology you look for similar words in Excel help and they aren't there. You have to first learn what Excel called action before you can lookup the help on it.

And if you don't like posts by a particular individual, no one is forcing you to look at them. Just because you may have read about the problem and solution before, doesn't mean it won't be helpful to some of the newer memebers. Also as you progress with your learning sometimes a post may catch your eye, and when you read it, it offers a solution or new idea for your own project. If the post hadn't been made because the topic was once discussed in 1999 then many could miss a learning opportunity.

I think the board is great, and other than asking people from refraining from posting the same question in more than one area, there's not much else I would like to see change.

One other board I sometimes go to lets you upload a copy of you DB so others can see exactly what you are talking about, but this board survives fine without that.

Another site offers FAQ's which I think is a good idea, but again it requires members to contribute and I think the ones who give most of the help here already spend enough time helping us, that to expect that of them is a bit much.

I would just like to offer my thanks to EVERYONE here at this site. I think we all contribute to each others learning and generally the people that come here have a very friendly and open attitude which you don't find at every site.

 

[BukHix]

Capri,

Check this thread if you haven't allready ------> Topic: FAQ Pages

 

[capri]

I just read the suggestion. What I was referring to is something like what this site has
http://www.tek-tips.com/gfaq.cfm/lev2/4/lev3/27/spid/181

Access Forums already has a FAQ (which dumb ole me just had a look at for the first time) and I think items could be added to it
rather than having things stored on a variety of different servers (unless there is a storage space issue). They could be listed under the same headings Tables, Queries etc. and so long as the title was descriptive people could find the help they need. It's not always code that people are looking for.

If newbies were referred to the FAQ's they would quickly learn to look their first for solutions. It could be built up over time as questions arise.

 

[Rich]

tek_tips is a pain it's slow loaded with adverts absurd login's forms etc. and having to click links every time to view responses, phew!
Now if I could figure out how to build a site with plenty of samples and faq's, would it be searched for research or would it be considered easier to come here?
Whilst research in itself has to be a noble cause I do feel that critism of a member who actually tried to earn their keep here is in itself OTT.

 

[BukHix]

I am becoming more and more interested in taking on this project. My idea is similar to Tek Tips but no adds. All I need is the database with the tables correctly done and I could get this project started.

It could be a community project with authors of code getting credit for what they have contributed.

 

[R. Hicks]

Buk ...... you forgot one other important thing. An endless source of funding. This is an expensive venture. If you think for a second that you may can profit from it, you are sadly mistaken. I am a Moderator at another large Access related site so I know most of the details of this. Forum Software and, even more costly, Rental on a Server that is powerful enough to do a decent job can drain your financial resources very, very quicky.

You may have unlimited resourses at hand but ..... but just case, it's something to think about .....

RDH

[This message has been edited by R. Hicks (edited 09-06-2001).]

 

[rschultz]

I too am probably guilty of coming here too much. I find On-Line help dificult to understand. The answers here save time, they are in English (as apposed to pedantic) and sometimes they come with a 'watch out for' or 'but don't...' which HELP would never do. I don't feel guilty cause I've learned a LOT from here, more than I can learn from a book, which for me has never been a good way to learn. I used to call the HELP line when I was using SMART and after I got off the phone I'd go back and read the book and it would say the same thing I was just told. Somehow 'hearing' the information was better for me to grasp. It seems the same way here.

 

[BukHix]

Buk ...... you forgot one other important thing. An endless source of funding. This is an expensive venture. If you think for a second that you may can profit from it, you are sadly mistaken.

Naw, I gave up trying to make money off the internet about a week after my first time on it. I waste way too much time on it to make money from it

Forum Software and, even more costly, Rental on a Server that is powerful enough to do a decent job can drain your financial resources very, very quicky.

I have access to a couple of servers with a lot of free space, I am going to code the script to store and display the script myself. I could be wrong about this but I have a hard time believing the database would get that big or that my Hosts would get that stressed from any traffic I might generate.

I am just looking for a worthwhile project to get into. My biggest concern was gettting in trouble for having code on my site that some one could claim was theirs.

By the way Snitz has an ASP based, community built and supported forum script that is free for the downloading. It contains most of the features that the newer UBBs and VBulletin boards do. Check it out here: The Snitz Forums 2000

[This message has been edited by BukHix (edited 09-06-2001).]

 

[raskew]

Dearest bleeding hearts,

If you've observed these forums over time, you'll find that there are some folks who continually plead ignorance (despite the fact that they've posted numerous inquiries and responses), and who post inquiry after inquiry asking for assistance!

If you'll look at their topics, you'll find that they are inevitably business related. After four years of responding to these forums, have yet to find one that wants help in managing their personal stamp collection or their personal baseball card collection. Instead, they're asking for assistance in a business-related activity.

What does that tell us? In the case of 'frequent' inquirers (average of more than one per day), they don't know what they're doing , are making no significant effort to improve their knowledge level, and they'd appreciate if someone would put them out of their misery, for free (…they'll get the paycheck, you'll never see a dime!)

My point is this. There are times when all of us, having done our research, run up against a 'brick-wall'. This is the time when we should rightfully ask for help. However, what I object to are the folks who don't even bother to do any research and pass their 'problem of the moment' on to the forum for someone else to research if for them.

Is that point-of-view objectionable to you?