Medical (3 Viewers)

[Dick7Access]

Correct me if I am wrong

The difference between socialize medicine and private health care, is as always follow the money.

Recently I fell and as a result ended up with back and hip pain.

Now the VA (government run basically socialize medicine) took X-rays and recommended physical therapy.

physical therapy department doesn’t have an opening for next 92 days.

Why? They have a limit on funds, they can't hire more people, so everyone has to wait in line

I can go private and pay for it myself and get it right away, which I will probably do.

Why? Can private medicine accommodate more people. They don’t have a budget; they can hire more people. Follow the money.

Now, in case there is at least one, bleeding heart on this forum, I understand there some people out there that can’t afford private medical. Then I am also trouble that maybe they for most of their life lived, for wine, women, and song, and gave no tough to their after years. Just a thought

 

[Mark_]

Condolences for having to deal with the VA. Last time I tried getting an appointment was after I returned from deployment. Had 180 days support from the VA. First appointment for allergies was after the end of my benefits.

 

[Dick7Access]

Condolences for having to deal with the VA. Last time I tried getting an appointment was after I returned from deployment. Had 180 days support from the VA. First appointment for allergies was after the end of my benefits.

I am retired so my befits are for life, actually even death, I already had my wife in national commentary.
Don't get me wrong, the VA has been a good benefit tor me. $100,000 operation thru VA at civilian hospital, cost me nothing, and much more.
Just please try to force the whole country to wait in line.

 

[DickyP]

As an outsider I can only say that however much I complain about the NHS in UK it sounds better than this. Mind you we do NOTHING for veterans.

 

[Dick7Access]

As an outsider I can only say that however much I complain about the NHS in UK it sounds better than this. Mind you we do NOTHING for veterans.

Are there long waiting lines with NHS. Can you get an appoint within 5 or 6 days like I can with my civilian doctors.
I hear Canada also has extreme back logs, but don't known this as fact. Anybody on blog from Canada

 

[moke123]

The current administration cut 30,000 jobs from the VA last year and I think another 35,000 of unfilled positions.
It was part of project 2025. No surprise that it will take months to get an appointment.

 

[Isaac]

Correct me if I am wrong

The difference between socialize medicine and private health care, is as always follow the money.

Recently I fell and as a result ended up with back and hip pain.

Now the VA (government run basically socialize medicine) took X-rays and recommended physical therapy.

physical therapy department doesn’t have an opening for next 92 days.

Why? They have a limit on funds, they can't hire more people, so everyone has to wait in line

I can go private and pay for it myself and get it right away, which I will probably do.

Why? Can private medicine accommodate more people. They don’t have a budget; they can hire more people. Follow the money.

Now, in case there is at least one, bleeding heart on this forum, I understand there some people out there that can’t afford private medical. Then I am also trouble that maybe they for most of their life lived, for wine, women, and song, and gave no tough to their after years. Just a thought

I'm sorry to hear of both your primary trouble falling + your bad experience with VA. I have actually heard a LOT of these 'horror stories' about people struggling to get decent help from a VA hospital. If I were a veteran I think I'd just get private insurance like everyone else, unless I lived near a VA hospital that was unusually effective.

These types of examples are things people sometimes cite when speaking out against socialized medicine.
I for one have begun to wonder if government provided healthcare maybe IS a decent idea. Maybe there is something else existing that we can do without and have healthcare instead, but it's the costs that's the root of all our trouble...the costs being charged by hospitals and professionals.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Moke's point about the VA layoffs is a contributor. Staff cuts play hell with treatment schedules. Also, the private care folks can charge more and pass along some of the extra money to attract more employees with bonuses and (slightly) higher pay.

 

[Dick7Access]

I'm sorry to hear of both your primary trouble falling + your bad experience with VA. I have actually heard a LOT of these 'horror stories' about people struggling to get decent help from a VA hospital. If I were a veteran I think I'd just get private insurance like everyone else, unless I lived near a VA hospital that was unusually effective.

These types of examples are things people sometimes cite when speaking out against socialized medicine.
I for one have begun to wonder if government provided healthcare maybe IS a decent idea. Maybe there is something else existing that we can do without and have healthcare instead, but it's the costs that's the root of all our trouble...the costs being charged by hospitals and professionals.

I have other insurance but it doesn't cover my hearing aids, my blue tooth, my electric scooter, the lift om my truck etc, VA does. I am looking in to see if my other insurance covers my physical theopathy.

 

[pbaldy]

Maybe it depends where you are as well. My daughter is retired USAF and has pretty good experiences with VA, including physical therapy. She's in ID.

 

[Dick7Access]

Maybe it depends where you are as well. My daughter is retired USAF and has pretty good experiences with VA, including physical therapy. She's in ID.

Right on. Traveling as I do, I have visited a few different VA. One in Texas could not make a minor repair on my hearing aid that they do at my home VA in 5 minute at the window without an appointment. One in VW could not check me for covid. Another TX VA in TX look at the infection on my arm and rushed me in without an appointment.

 

[Mark_]

From what I've heard Germany may have a much better solution that just "socialize". You can rely on the public healthcare system if you wish. You can also go to private clinics and have private insurance to help defer costs.

Those who can and wish to use private medical providers. You still have access to public though, so you are never without an option.

 

[DickyP]

The German system is a bit of a hybrid: compulsory insurance, normally taken from your pay! You want more than the basics, you pay. It's not quite as simlpe as that in reality, of course.

 

[Cotswold]

At the end of the day medical treatment is a scarce resource that is sustained by fear of falling ill.

In the UK treatment is regarded as a right but the people running it in their grandiose ivory towers, consistently getting their ability mixed up with their ambition. The NHS is a huge bureaucratic organisation and like the police, they believe that throwing ever increasing amounts of money at it will result in improvements. During the Covid fiasco the NHS attempted to create what was humorously called a Track & Trace system. Needless to say it never saw the light of day. Despite the huge expense.
Having said that there are millions of patients a year who demand unnecessary treatment. At the moment there is a craze for spurious mental health claims, which has replaced back pain, whiplash and other nonsense claims. Most supported by the woke brigade and the belief that everything is someone else's fault.

In the UK the NHS provides a so called, free service but is actually supported by taxation. There are costly options for additional private medical care. Invariably many of the doctors working in the private sector are moonlighting from the NHS for a second income.
There are unfortunately huge numbers in the NHS who are just sat in a warm bath, doing as little as possible. A GP at a local doctors' practice will be on £130,000 plus. Many only work a three day week. Of all the doctors and NHS staff that I have met over my life, there are maybe five, or six that I have any respect for. The rest have been mediocre , uninterested, or just filling in time to the end of the day. In the main, I tend to give the medical profession the same respect as I do car dealers and estate agents. Many in the UK believe that the NHS is more likely to let them down than not.

It does appear to me, that every country in the World has difficulty in providing what can be regarded as a satisfactory health system.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Speaking from the U.S., I always worked jobs that offered good family health insurance, medical, dental, vision, and so on. I made that a priority over other perks like vacation time or a higher salary.

Now that I’m retired, we’re on a Medicare Advantage plan called SCAN. No real complaints, it works.

 

[Slap]

At the end of the day medical treatment is a scarce resource that is sustained by fear of falling ill.

In the UK treatment is regarded as a right but the people running it in their grandiose ivory towers, consistently getting their ability mixed up with their ambition. The NHS is a huge bureaucratic organisation and like the police, they believe that throwing ever increasing amounts of money at it will result in improvements. During the Covid fiasco the NHS attempted to create what was humorously called a Track & Trace system. Needless to say it never saw the light of day. Despite the huge expense.
Having said that there are millions of patients a year who demand unnecessary treatment. At the moment there is a craze for spurious mental health claims, which has replaced back pain, whiplash and other nonsense claims. Most supported by the woke brigade and the belief that everything is someone else's fault.

In the UK the NHS provides a so called, free service but is actually supported by taxation. There are costly options for additional private medical care. Invariably many of the doctors working in the private sector are moonlighting from the NHS for a second income.
There are unfortunately huge numbers in the NHS who are just sat in a warm bath, doing as little as possible. A GP at a local doctors' practice will be on £130,000 plus. Many only work a three day week. Of all the doctors and NHS staff that I have met over my life, there are maybe five, or six that I have any respect for. The rest have been mediocre , uninterested, or just filling in time to the end of the day. In the main, I tend to give the medical profession the same respect as I do car dealers and estate agents. Many in the UK believe that the NHS is more likely to let them down than not.

It does appear to me, that every country in the World has difficulty in providing what can be regarded as a satisfactory health system.

Whilst Cotswold has accurately summed up a lot of the general publics frustrations with the NHS I for one remain grateful.

While suffering from pneumonia almost 2 years ago and on my second admission to an isolation ward an incidental finding was picked up on a CT Scan showing I had a congenital heart defect (bicuspid aortic valve) which in turn had wreaked havoc in my ascending aorta.

Yeah I waited 12 months for an operation, but after open heart surgery and a new ascending aorta, aortic valve and aortic root I'm back in full health. I had to cover travel costs to and from London for a while but nothing else except an annual prescription payment.

I'll be forever grateful and I certainly met a lot of staff who genuinely did take an interest in me and my after care.

So it's not all doom and gloom!

 

[AccessBlaster]

Awesome!

 

[MarkK]

Correct me if I am wrong.
...
I understand there some people out there that can’t afford private medical. Then I am also trouble that maybe they for most of their life lived, for wine, women, and song, and gave no tough to their after years. Just a thought

So in broad strokes, the poor deserve to suffer. That's what you're saying, correct? In broad strokes, if you can't afford medical, and all things being equal, this is self-inflicted.

This makes me think of something I read in Slaughter-Five by Kurt Vonnegut.

“America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.”

My counter claim is that there's an un-examined subtext in American culture that values wealth over justice, and that the term 'bleeding heart' is an insult, akin to 'n??r-lover,' intended to shame those who would put justice first.

I think the fundamental question is this: Is the provision of health care more a matter of justice or economics? Obviously this is a spectrum, not a black and white issue, but in which direction would, or should, the scale tip in your mind?

Even in the US, if you show up in an emergency room with grievous injury, you'll get treatment regardless if you can pay, because justice. But also, if your daughter develops a brain tumour and you happen to have inadequate insurance, you will lose your house, because economics.

 

[pbaldy]

So in broad strokes, the poor deserve to suffer. That's what you're saying, correct?

I don't think that's what Dick said at all. He specified those who had means but chose not to live within them, along the lines of the old "The Ant and the Cricket" fable.

 

[MarkK]

I don't think that's what Dick said at all.

Fair enough. It's what I heard, and I fully concede that says something about me, not him. Furthermore, if I've caused a hurt, I apologize. That was not my intent.

But the question of much greater interest to me, and the central intent of my post:
• As an ideal or abstraction, is the provision of health care more a concern of justice, or of economics?