OBAMA WINS (at last)

[pbaldy]

I would hope that if you really do plan to vote for McCain, that you at least admit to being a wholehearted supporter of war mongering.

I'm not a McCain fan, but this is somewhat...I don't know, narrow-minded maybe? Do you support 100% of the positions of whatever candidate you vote for? I doubt anyone does. We vote for the person most closely aligned with our beliefs. There are often many things we disagree with. Sometimes we're voting for the person the least far away from our beliefs (that's been my recent experience).

War may be your big issue. Someone else may be against the war but abortion is their big issue, and they'll vote for McCain because of that (or Obama-it swings both ways). Saying in essence that someone is a war monger if they vote for McCain is...I'm still having trouble with a good word, but it isn't right.

 

[Alisa]

And to change those based on the educated postings of others

Yeah right
If anyone ever changes their opinion because of my ranting and raving, then the world really will be ending.

 

[Alisa]

I'm not a McCain fan, but this is somewhat...I don't know, narrow-minded maybe? Do you support 100% of the positions of whatever candidate you vote for? I doubt anyone does. We vote for the person most closely aligned with our beliefs. There are often many things we disagree with. Sometimes we're voting for the person the least far away from our beliefs (that's been my recent experience).

War may be your big issue. Someone else may be against the war but abortion is their big issue, and they'll vote for McCain because of that (or Obama-it swings both ways). Saying in essence that someone is a war monger if they vote for McCain is...I'm still having trouble with a good word, but it isn't right.

I agree that in general, we are forced to pick someone who (very) imperfectly represents our beliefs. However, I don't agree that this war is just one of many issues that you can agree or disagree on with respect to a political candidate. This war goes to the very foundation of our country. I think war mongering is exactly what Bush and his cronies did in the lead up to the war - did you read the link I posted earlier? They deliberately lied to drag us into this war. They not only lied outright, they also manipulated the media to lie on their behalf, hired retired generals to tout their war mongering message on CNN, etc, and used political tactics to scare people away from speaking out (see: Valerie Plame). Is this still America when our government so brazenly lies to us? Is this still America when the deaths of over 4,000 soldiers don't even have to be justified?

We now have a candidate, McCain, who has vowed to continue Bush's policies in Iraq because they are "working". He has also said many times that he would like to invade Iran. You may want to pick a prettier euphamism, but to me, that is war mongering.

 

[ColinEssex]

Exactly what did I say that made it personal? I think it is interesting that you always post on these political topics, but when someone disagrees with you, you refuse to discuss the issue. IMHO, challenging or disagreeing with someone's opinion on an internet forum does not constitute "making it personal".

Apparently it does if you're outside the USA - you get branded 'anti'American', a 'horses ass', a 'member of Hitlers youth' and a dozen other things as well as being warned you'll get banned from the forum for daring to challenge the comments of a Yank and trying to educate them in the real world outside the white picket fence America lives in.

Col

 

[Alisa]

Apparently it does if you're outside the USA - you get branded 'anti'American', a 'horses ass', a 'member of Hitlers youth' and a dozen other things as well as being warned you'll get banned from the forum for daring to challenge the comments of a Yank and trying to educate them in the real world outside the white picket fence America lives in.

Col

We must be talking about you again, because I am inside the US, and have never (yet anyway) been branded as any part of a horse or as a member of any youth group

 

[pbaldy]

I did not read the link but it's irrelevant to my point. I'll stipulate to everything you say is there and for the sake of argument agree that both Bush and McCain are war mongers. My point is that them being war mongers doesn't make anyone who votes for them one. Thus I can see why George felt it was personal. You calling McCain a war monger is your opinion and you're entitled to it. You calling George a war monger will feel personal to him.

I understand that for you the most important issue is the war. Understand that for other people it may not be, as evidenced by the abortion example. That's why I don't think your statement was appropriate.

 

[georgedwilkinson]

You calling McCain a war monger is your opinion and you're entitled to it. You calling George a war monger will feel personal to him.

Another intelligent person.

I don't care what you call McCain, Hillary, Obama, Bush, or any other politician. I have my own opinions about those politicians. But when you call another forum member a war-monger because they disagree with you about politicians, it has gotten personal.

 

[Alisa]

You calling McCain a war monger is your opinion and you're entitled to it. You calling George a war monger will feel personal to him.

Point taken.

I understand that for you the most important issue is the war. Understand that for other people it may not be, as evidenced by the abortion example. That's why I don't think your statement was appropriate.

Actually the war is not the most important issue for me. In any case, I still object to your have your cake and eat it too argument. If you support McCain, you DO support the war. You can't say, the war is bad, but I am going to vote for McCain anyway because I am pro-life. All I was saying in my post to George earlier was that if he supports McCain, he should have the balls to admit that he also supports the war. If that is too personal for him, then, to repeat my earlier question, why post at all?

 

[Alisa]

Another intelligent person.

I don't care what you call McCain, Hillary, Obama, Bush, or any other politician. I have my own opinions about those politicians. But when you call another forum member a war-monger because they disagree with you about politicians, it has gotten personal.

Maybe the problem was my choice of words. Bush and McCain are war mongers (definition: one who urges or attempts to cause a war).

What would be the appropriate term for one who supports one who urges or attempts to cause a war?

 

[georgedwilkinson]

In this case, a forum member.

 

[Alisa]

In this case, a forum member.

I don't know, it just doesn't have the same ring to it. Got anything else?

 

[Rich]

In this case, a forum member.

Just one? since it's obvious that for many war and the loss of life is not very high on their agenda it's no wonder the rest of the world shudders at the thought of the next Pres being McCain

 

[pbaldy]

I still object to your have your cake and eat it too argument. If you support McCain, you DO support the war. You can't say, the war is bad, but I am going to vote for McCain anyway because I am pro-life.

Sure you can, and it's not "have your cake and eat it too". Let's say I'm that fictional voter and I vote for Obama because he's against the war. Does that make me pro-abortion?

 

[Alisa]

Sure you can, and it's not "have your cake and eat it too". Let's say I'm that fictional voter and I vote for Obama because he's against the war. Does that make me pro-abortion?

No, but it does make you pro-choice.

 

[pbaldy]

Semantics, but I assume that means you concede the point. It does not mean I'm pro-choice, it simply means I chose a different, difficult compromise.

 

[georgedwilkinson]

I don't know, it just doesn't have the same ring to it. Got anything else?

A person with whom I have mutual respect, even though I disagree with them?

Why do you think you need to label people?

 

[ColinEssex]

We must be talking about you again, because I am inside the US, and have never (yet anyway) been branded as any part of a horse or as a member of any youth group

I am talking about people who dare to challenge an American(s) on this forum. (Not just me)

It's happened to Rich, Brian, Paul and others.

Americans hate to be challenged - when they are, they then lash out verbally with childlike name calling, refuse to even contemplate another persons opinion and will even try to get the other person banned.

Anyone would think it was us that downed the twin towers.

Americans think they rule the world but they don't even get on the scoreboard - why can't the USA see that?

Col

 

[dan-cat]

You can't say, the war is bad, but I am going to vote for McCain anyway because I am pro-life.

You are just trying to bend someone's viewpoint to match your own.

Your argument would lead to an anti-war pro-lifer to not be able to vote at all. Total nonsense.

 

[dan-cat]

I am talking about people who dare to challenge an American(s) on this forum. (Not just me)

It's happened to Rich, Brian, Paul and others.

Americans hate to be challenged - when they are, they then lash out verbally with childlike name calling, refuse to even contemplate another persons opinion and will even try to get the other person banned.

Anyone would think it was us that downed the twin towers.

Americans think they rule the world but they don't even get on the scoreboard - why can't the USA see that?

Col

Anybody would think that the whole experience has embittered you

 

[Rich]

You are just trying to bend someone's viewpoint to match your own.

Your argument would lead to an anti-war pro-lifer to not be able to vote at all. Total nonsense.

Not many options to choose in America is there, pro life or pro war........