Proof that consciousness lives outside the laws of physics (1 Viewer)

Jon

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I have an interesting thought for you today. First, answer a simple question: do you have Free Will? Do you believe you make up your own mind and make decisions?

If your answer to the above question is, "Yes, I make up my own mind", what you are essentially saying is that you do not believe in cause and effect. Let me explain.

Ever since the big bang, the atoms of the Universe are set in motion according to Newtons laws, rather like where the balls end up on a pool table after the initial strike. Currently, in the Universe the balls are still moving! And moving according to the laws of physics! In addition, we have the Quantum world, but the same thing applies. The quantum world also applies the laws of physics. It is a little more random and unpredictable than Newtons laws, but still, nevertheless, they exist.

Given the above, you have no Free Will since everything operates on a cause and effect + quantum basis (Edit: including your brain). There is no outside agent that allows you to manipulate these forces and randomisations. [If you believe there is an outside agent, please name it.] However, the real world seems to suggest that indeed we can make decisions, however poorly!

So, if we can make decisions yet everything is preordained and relies on the laws of physics, consciousness - the part of us that "decides" - must lay outside of these laws. There follows that indeed a spiritual world must be out there, despite scientists denial.

Your thoughts?
 
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CJ_London

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don't see why I can't make up my own mind up and make decisions whilst also believing in cause and effect.

I believe if I jump off a cliff (the cause) I will fall (the effect). But I can make my own mind up as to whether or not to jump

I can make my own mind up about the cause and effects of covid, global warming, the cleanliness of my car and make decisions as a consequence - but doesn't mean I right.

I'd go so far as to say the making a decision is a cause with a potential effect (I'm sadder/happier) whilst acting on that decision is a cause for other effects (I'm fitter/fatter/richer/poorer - or someone else is).

I fully accept that there are effects over which I have no control of the cause(s) - the weather for example. At the micro level, my taking a walk causes a disturbance in the air which when added to everyone else's actions results in a butterfly falling of it's perch on the other side of the world.
 

Jon

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But I can make my own mind up as to whether or not to jump
So your brain doesn't operate on the principles of cause and effect? Which part of physics have you overcome? Your brain is made up of a mass of atoms, yes? These atoms are operating in motion, using Newton's Laws and Quantum behaviour. They operate just like the pool table, where their position is preordained depending on where they were before, their current direction and the force applied. When your synapse triggers, what caused it to trigger?

If you make a decision that you control, are you saying you are somehow altering where these pool balls end up?

[Or, if you do believe you have a choice, how does the pool table analogy differ from the position of atoms in the Universe?]

Edit: I've added an edit to my original post to clarify the argument. I make that two edits now, including this one!
 
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The_Doc_Man

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I think that the problem is in definition (at least partly). Do you have free will? (rhetorical...) Yes? What does that mean in practical terms?

I understand the deterministic viewpoint of cogitation - in the sense that our minds appear to make decisions for us to do or not do something. Those decisions are the result of biochemical processes that should be deterministic. It's all about the chemical potentials of various neural pathways. Transmit a signal? It happens because of a flood of neurotransmitters from axon to dendrite. So in that sense, it all seems to be pre-determined. Except... that there are agonizing decisions that we all make, decisions that take inordinate amounts of time to finally pick a path and follow it. Sometimes that deterministic viewpoint isn't so well determined. If it were always fully determined, we would never hesitate at any choice.

If that is the case, let's talk about why we hesitate - and what mechanism is relevant here. Depending on how much you accept Transactional Analysis, you might accept that we are RARELY of one mind about anything - we are of THREE minds. These are the child self, adolescent self (a.k.a. parent self), and adult self. Freud might have called them the Id, the Ego, and the Super Ego.

Many psychologists believe that the three parts are EACH capable of contributing to a decision as though they are all independent - like, perhaps, a multi-processor computer where all THREE sections are churning away at something or another. Good thing it's an odd number of parts, 'cause if it were only two parts, we would have a lot of deadlocks. Whether they are independent or not, they are interdependent.

When you hear someone say "I'm of two minds on that topic" it might not be a joke or a turn of phrase. One of the reasons that people feel emotional pain over some sudden deep, dark family revelation is that they are experiencing cognitive dissonance as they try to process what they have just heard. That dissonance occurs when two different parts of the mind clash so strongly that you cannot immediately reconcile the conflicted feelings.

Case in point: My religious beliefs are well known. When I discuss atheism, many people can casually say "That's your choice" and move on. But when you find radicalized believers, their dissonance comes from the clash that their child self (keeper of instinctual behavior) and parent self (keeper of instilled/learned behavior) cannot reconcile the idea that a highly trusted person might have told them something that wasn't true. Maybe the child self still fears Hell. Maybe the parent self trusts what was taught from an early age. (Probably depends on each individual case.) If Mom and Dad taught you religion but then someone attacks the basis of your religious belief, your parent self CANNOT reconcile with the idea that Mom and Dad lied (or merely were wrong.) The child self feels the emotion of terror that a long-instilled belief might be wrong and thus causes the extreme reaction often seen in strongly confronted religious zealots.

What has this to do with free will? Have you ever heard of "chaos theory"? That theory talks about forces ALMOST in balance, so close to it that the result is highly sensitive to earlier factors and influences. The key phrase is "Sensitive Dependence on Initial Conditions" or SDIC. When you are in balance between the adult (rational) self and one of the other two selves, the factors that assist you in making that decision might be the color of the dress your new friend wore on the day you met even though the problem at hand might be purely financial. It might just be an association "out of the blue" that triggers you to be more or less favorable to some new thing. This is because our minds operate based on multiple contributing factors coming from different origins and even different times. What is it the bard said? "The past is prologue." Decisions you make today can (probably do) depend on all prior life experiences in different degrees.

So how does this tie into free will. The answer is that in practical terms, if chaos theory is at work, at the micromolecular scale you can have nearly matched conflicting processes. Who says that ALL neurons fire uniformly? (I surely don't!) Who says that your body's level of neurotransmitters is at full strength? Who says some other recent thought didn't momentarily deplete the neurotransmitters? Who says you don't have a very minor amyloid plaque build-up somewhere that blocks the flow of cogitation? The point is, all of those factors contribute in positive or negative ways to the flow of neural activity. If you have conflicted ideas and a chaos theory situation in the brain, the decision you make might depend on too many factors and incredibly minuscule factors such that your decision is not predictable. Your inner selves might disagree, requiring a resolution to occur first.

From a pragmatic viewpoint, therefore, if I cannot predict what you or I will do in a given situation, it is indistinguishable from free will. Further, having free will isn't precluded by all those biochemical processes. Based on a relevant discussion from author Randal Garret from the story Unwise Child, consider his description of the Yale Law of Animal Behavior: Given a set of lab animals taken from a breeding line that has run true for at least seventeen generations, placed in identical surroundings in a tightly controlled environment, and given the same initial stimuli with identical strength and timing, each animal will do as it Goddamned well pleases.

The (mis-)quote from that story reflects on the fact that the animal cannot do otherwise. Each animal does whatever feels right for it at the moment of the test. This is because of SDIC. What pleases animal X might be less pleasing to animal Y. If you want to call their reactions the result of biochemical determinism, fine - but then you have to explain why their reactions aren't identical. (And they will not be identical!) The EASIEST way is to say that frequently our actions are nearly in balance, awaiting only a reasonable external stimulus to trigger an action. BUT unless you can completely describe the biochemical state of the test subject at the exact moment of that stimulus, you cannot expect those animals to give you uniform results.

There, in the gaps between neurons and at the sub-microscopic level of chemical reactions that depend on recent repolarization of nerve endings, lies free will.
 

jdraw

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Damn! Just when I thought picking a numbered ball out of a bag of 1000 balls was random. And now I have to accept that CJ kills butterflies????:eek:
Perhaps not directly and definitely not intentionally, BUT walking while knowing full-well that 1 or more butterflies could be dislodged from his/her perch and be in serious risk of falling with injury(ies) -🦋 even death.
 
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CJ_London

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CJ kills butterflies?
I was saying through no direct fault of my own, it falls off its perch - up it the butterfly whether if flies or not :geek:
 

Jon

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There, in the gaps between neurons and at the sub-microscopic level of chemical reactions that depend on recent repolarization of nerve endings, lies free will.
And what actually determines those chemical reactions? Is it not the laws of physics? If those chemical reactions that lead to decisions being taken are just the laws of physics, we are not deciding anything are we. Instead, we are just responding in a way that looks like we have a choice. We are at the mercy of cause and effect. Unless, of course, consciousness lies outside the laws of physics and acts as an external agent that influences those laws of physics. Q.E.D.
 

Jon

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I bring this topic up because is it not one of the most important considerations in our lives? If we have no free will, how can we correctly apply justice. We can't. Someone who had no say in the crime they committed did not act criminally. Instead, they were forced. It also brings up the possibility of the spirit world, those intangible unknowns that float around in the ether. If consciousness operates outside of the laws of physics, as the logic would suggest, it means there is another dimension that must exist.

=> Religion.

Scientists discover what we can measure. But how do you measure something that cannot be physically measured because it operates in a different dimension for which we have no tool? Does this mean the spirit world is "a thing" and that perhaps Religion is ironically proven by logic to be based in reality?
 

The_Doc_Man

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And what actually determines those chemical reactions? Is it not the laws of physics? If those chemical reactions that lead to decisions being taken are just the laws of physics, we are not deciding anything are we. Instead, we are just responding in a way that looks like we have a choice. We are at the mercy of cause and effect. Unless, of course, consciousness lies outside the laws of physics and acts as an external agent that influences those laws of physics. Q.E.D.

You see, Jon, I am not a strict cause-and-effect man anyway. Quantum mechanics is statistical in nature and has been shown to not be fully predictable at the lowest levels. Those gross deterministic effects are simply statistical sums of a lot of small quantum effects that on the average will trend this way or that. But every now and then you get something less predictable and in those cases, chaos theory becomes part of the process. Does QM, because it is not strict cause-and-effect, lie outside the confines of physics? Would consciousness be within the realm of chaos theory and QM?

My idea is that quibbling about free will is first and foremost a definitional problem. FIRST tell me unequivocally what constitutes free will. Then tell me how to tell the difference between what you just said and what we do when we have a complex decision that could go either way.
 

Isaac

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I'm kind of with CJ. Cause and effect might make our "choices" 100% predictable (in this perfect ideal analyze-able scenario of course that doesn't exist), but that doesn't mean we didn't have a choice. Knowledge of the future is not omnipotence.

Also, MANY scientists exist who believe in God. So I'm not sure about the scientists' denial part.
On the contrary, it was a doctor who started Alcoholics Anonymous. (Depending on how you read the history, but without nitpicking).

Think about it. A program based heavily on spiritual principles, and that "God doing" what the recovering individual "cannot do for him/herself".

And just like that, it became the most successful "self"-help program in the world, being the only way that most people who do recover, recover.
Odd turn of events ;)
 

The_Doc_Man

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Think about it. A program based heavily on spiritual principles, and that "God doing" what the recovering individual "cannot do for him/herself".

A placebo is still a placebo. As a New Orleanian who is familiar with voodoo, I can tell you that it works - if you BELIEVE that it works. And these programs that yield to a higher power work if you believe that they work. It is always a matter of belief. The same principle always applies. To my believing friends out there, believe as you wish. It is your right and your choice. But such programs don't work for everyone.
 

Jon

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You see, Jon, I am not a strict cause-and-effect man anyway. Quantum mechanics is statistical in nature and has been shown to not be fully predictable at the lowest levels. Those gross deterministic effects are simply statistical sums of a lot of small quantum effects that on the average will trend this way or that. But every now and then you get something less predictable and in those cases, chaos theory becomes part of the process. Does QM, because it is not strict cause-and-effect, lie outside the confines of physics? Would consciousness be within the realm of chaos theory and QM?

My idea is that quibbling about free will is first and foremost a definitional problem. FIRST tell me unequivocally what constitutes free will. Then tell me how to tell the difference between what you just said and what we do when we have a complex decision that could go either way.
I agree that quantum effects are statistical in nature when trying to make predictions. But I am arguing that QM lies *within* the laws of physics, not outside. The distinction is even if thought involved QM, thought is still based solely on the laws of physics, because when you drill down to the atomic level in the brain, physics is happening. For a decision to be a choice, you would need to be able to alter that chaos or Newtons laws. If we can't alter it, then everything is preordained. But if we can alter it, this is evidence for some state or force that lies outside the laws of physics (or undiscovered force).

Ignoring the undiscovered for a moment, this would suggest Religion is that which deals with the external influencing agent.
 
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Jon

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I'm kind of with CJ. Cause and effect might make our "choices" 100% predictable (in this perfect ideal analyze-able scenario of course that doesn't exist), but that doesn't mean we didn't have a choice. Knowledge of the future is not omnipotence.

Also, MANY scientists exist who believe in God. So I'm not sure about the scientists' denial part.
I'm not sure if you are getting what I mean by this argument. So perhaps I should break it down into a few questions:

1. Do you believe that at a particle level, we operate based on the laws of physics (which includes quantum mechanics)?

2. Do you accept that your brain is made up of these particles?

3. If our brain is made up of these particles, how can we actually make any choice, since the particles are already in motion and will end up according to existing forces on them. Look at the pool table analogy. Each pool ball is an atom in your brain. If you strike the pool balls, their motion is predetermined based on the direction and force of the initial strike, yes? The same for the atoms in your brain. Given that, how can we make a choice if the position of the atoms are predetermined by what happened before?

Did that make sense?

Regarding scientists denial, some scientists have a faith, I agree. But science itself does not. It operates on the provable. I am sure you agree that MANY scientists deny the existence of a spiritual world. Yet really, this side issue is more about scientists denying that the spiritual world has any scientific foundation, despite many attempts at trying to discover such a thing.
 
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The_Doc_Man

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But if we can alter it, this is evidence for some state or force that lies outside the laws of physics (or undiscovered force).

If we ARE talking about quantum-level influences, you neglect the possibility that the otherwise inexplicable decision MIGHT have been due to that unusual flap of a butterfly's wing three thousand miles away fourteen days ago. SDIC is funny like that. The force wouldn't have been outside the laws of physics - just outside of your conscious awareness that it even happened. A single cosmic ray event could do it. Have you ever had a nerve twitch or seen a sleeping dog with twitches? The common explanation was "cosmic ray striking a nerve in a way to cause a cascade of electrons" - or at least, when I was a kid that was what we were told. Now, of course, we understand it is more likely to be biochemical caused by drugs or excess caffeine or certain neuromuscular conditions. But ALL of them are merely probability-based explanations.

Just like we had that discussion of probability (in the Monty Hall thread) recently, this is a case where a single outcome depends on probability, not determinism. The swap/stay decision has a non-zero probability for either case. So... some decisions are STRONGLY odds-on based on biological determinism. Others decisions? Not so much certainty. Note that for my simulation, if I did NOT lock down the stay/swap choice, the player had 50-50 odds of getting the car.
 

Jon

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The Butterfly Effect is the exact thing I am talking about, except take that all the way back to the Big Bang. After explosion, all movement is based on the laws of physics and every location of each atom is preordained. Consequently, the atoms movement and position in the brain are already preordained. To have a choice, you have to say that you can alter the "already set in motion" forces. But if you can, what force are you using to alter it?
 

The_Doc_Man

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If you consider the Isaac Asimov model of the brain that he posited in his robot novels, the positronic brain in his stories is a difference engine that looks for the option with the highest potential. In a sense, this is a reasonable analog for OUR brains. We always do what seems best for us at the time. But because we have three sources of decision making, the question becomes "which one wins?" Our emotional self has inputs about what makes us feel good at the time. Our parent self works on the principles our parents taught us, i.e. learned behavior or socially-imposed behavior, doing what we were taught was the right thing to do when we were kids. Our adult self makes logical, reasoned decisions based on the options before us and probable outcomes. Somewhere in that mix, the winning factors overrule other factors and we act... we decide... we DO something.

However, Jon, it has always been said as long as I can remember that WE are the sum of or life's decisions and choices. Some of those chemical potentials in our biochemistry come from memories of prior situations. How does that work? I don't know, but it does. So if I decide I'm going to eat something, was that my biochemistry talking or was it my intellectual recognition that it was lunchtime, which I learned was typically at a certain time of day? And past a certain point, does it matter? When I decide to go to my wife and give her a hug (and get one in return), what biochemical urge prompted that decision? And why does it matter?

In the end, this is a Zen question: Here is this issue (biochemical determinism of actions). What must I do about it? What CAN I do about it? The answer to these two questions are "nothing" and "nothing." It is what it is. Or, if you prefer, we are what we are. At which point the next response is "That's nice. What subject is next for us to decide?" (I.e. move on, there is nothing left to decide here.)

You can argue that because of biochemical determinism, free will is an illusion. (Whoops, there goes God right out the window.) But come up with a definition of the term that avoids taking into consideration the uniqueness of everyone's past experiences as inputs to today's decisions, because that individually unique set of life experiences has to be taken into account.

I asked this question before, but I'll ask it again. What is free will in the context of this discussion? Before we quibble ourselves to death here, let's define terms. Otherwise we will never agree.
 

The_Doc_Man

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After explosion, all movement is based on the laws of physics and every location of each atom is preordained.

Except that according to Heisenberg, that is not true. According to all studies of the nuclear physics of radioactive decay, that is not true. You are casting this in a strict causality model that doesn't apply to atomic-level positioning and other properties. Spontaneous pair production in vacuuo is probabilistic in nature - but it still happens. You just can't predict when or where. You can only talk about odds in a given volume of space over a given time period.
 

Jon

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You can argue that because of biochemical determinism, free will is an illusion. (Whoops, there goes God right out the window.)
Acually, I am arguing the opposite. If the positions of all atoms is preordained, free will is an illusion. But "reality" seems to suggest that we do make decisions and have a choice. But this is at odds with the laws of physics. So, God exists! Or not necessarily God, but consciousness resides outside of the laws of physics, because somehow we seem to be able to make a choice on things, even though it must overcome the physics. This external force operates in another dimension. Could this be the spirit world?

Free will definition? Just simply the ability to make a choice, rather than everything being preordained since the Big Bang, due to the laws of physics.
 

The_Doc_Man

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Just simply the ability to make a choice, rather than everything being preordained since the Big Bang, due to the laws of physics.
Too narrow a definition, since if you WERE making a choice based on determinism, how would you know that you were doing so?
 

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