Romeny on the "failed" Socialist Countries of Europe (1 Viewer)

Jacob Mathai

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
546
The U.S. Presidential election is different from the elections in other countries. Here, any one can run as a candidate in the primaries. The party does not pick the candidate. In other countries (parliamentary system), the party decides who the candidate is. Each system has advantages and disadvantages. The U.S. system gives power to the individual, not the party.

Already several candidates have dropped out. Only four candidates are now competing to become the Republican nominee. Mr. Obama is the candidate for the Democratic party (unopposed). This is a long vetting process. Sometimes it gets very ugly. We have to live with it. Too much negative campaigning.

I do not believe for a minute that elections in other countries are nice and clean. Most countries (including Europe) have far more messy election processes (corruption, back-room deals, nepotism, aristocracy etc.) than the United States.
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
I do not believe for a minute that elections in other countries are nice and clean. Most countries (including Europe) have far more messy election processes (corruption, back-room deals, nepotism, aristocracy etc.) than the United States.

Because the Corporate controlled answer to politics in the US is much better. :rolleyes:
 

ColinEssex

Old registered user
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
9,116
I do not believe for a minute that elections in other countries are nice and clean. Most countries (including Europe) have far more messy election processes (corruption, back-room deals, nepotism, aristocracy etc.) than the United States.

There is alot of intimidation in many dictatorial type countries - like Korea, Zimbabwe and many African ones.

In Europe, the Italians are run by the mafia, the Greeks are also known for corruption, I think Spain is more or less ok apart from being intimidated by ETA, the UK is more or less ok, in the UK though, all our lot seem the same and most main politicians are multi-millionaires who have no idea of what happens at ground level. That's why they are cutting hospital care, people are left to lie in their own excrement, care-homes are akin to Auchwitz with some people being beaten and not fed or watered.

A woofter is another name for a poof - I believe you refer to them as faggots - although we tend to eat faggots with mashed potato, peas and gravy. We also smoke fags.

Col
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
There is alot of intimidation in many dictatorial type countries - like Korea, Zimbabwe and many African ones.

In Europe, the Italians are run by the mafia, the Greeks are also known for corruption, I think Spain is more or less ok apart from being intimidated by ETA, the UK is more or less ok, in the UK though, all our lot seem the same and most main politicians are multi-millionaires who have no idea of what happens at ground level. That's why they are cutting hospital care, people are left to lie in their own excrement, care-homes are akin to Auchwitz with some people being beaten and not fed or watered.

A woofter is another name for a poof - I believe you refer to them as faggots - although we tend to eat faggots with mashed potato, peas and gravy. We also smoke fags.

Col

"Faggot" is actually more of a deragatory name here. Gay or homosexual is preferred. I'm not sure why the former is insulting.

I was aware of the "faggot" and the "fag" usage in the UK. It's amazing how much can differ between countries, especially with slang terms.
 

Adam Caramon

Registered User
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
822
The U.S. system gives power to the individual, not the party.

That is an interesting way of looking at things. I've always thought that the US system forced an individual to join one of the parties. Being elected as president as an independent or 3rd party candidate is virtually impossible.
 

Jacob Mathai

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
546
That is an interesting way of looking at things. I've always thought that the US system forced an individual to join one of the parties. Being elected as president as an independent or 3rd party candidate is virtually impossible.
Because the American people want to keep the two party system which served them well (not perfect by any stretch of imagination). Ron Paul is now running in the Republican primaries. He is a RINO (Republican In Name Only). He attracts many younger people and many who are not happy with the establishment (both Republican and Democrat). Today, I read that Donald Trump is looking to become a third party candidate in the general election (I hope NOT).
I believe the two party system served us well. In many countries with Parliamentary system, the parties split and sometimes create regional parties. If Regional party "A" is popular in Virginia and regional party "B" is popular in Maryland, they start treating each other like unfriendly nations (a possibility). Such situations have happened in many countries.
Sure, in USA, Corporate money sometimes influence the outcome of elections. Many people conveniently forget the influence and activism of labor unions and the corrupt press. In 2008 Democratic primaries, the Mainstream press openly supported Mr. Obama against Mrs. Clinton because they knew Obama is on the far left of the Democratic party. Mr. Obama is certainly counting on the press to support him against the Republican candidate in 2012. The Mainstream media loves Socialism.
BTW, many newspapers in the USA are close to bankruptcy and I am sure they are counting on Mr. Obama for a bail out in 2013.
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
Because the American people want to keep the two party system which served them well (not perfect by any stretch of imagination). Ron Paul is now running in the Republican primaries. He is a RINO (Republican In Name Only). He attracts many younger people and many who are not happy with the establishment (both Republican and Democrat). Today, I read that Donald Trump is looking to become a third party candidate in the general election (I hope NOT).
I believe the two party system served us well. In many countries with Parliamentary system, the parties split and sometimes create regional parties. If Regional party "A" is popular in Virginia and regional party "B" is popular in Maryland, they start treating each other like unfriendly nations (a possibility). Such situations have happened in many countries.
Sure, in USA, Corporate money sometimes influence the outcome of elections. Many people conveniently forget the influence and activism of labor unions and the corrupt press. In 2008 Democratic primaries, the Mainstream press openly supported Mr. Obama against Mrs. Clinton because they knew Obama is on the far left of the Democratic party. Mr. Obama is certainly counting on the press to support him against the Republican candidate in 2012. The Mainstream media loves Socialism.
BTW, many newspapers in the USA are close to bankruptcy and I am sure they are counting on Mr. Obama for a bail out in 2013.

Bush started the bailouts and Obama kept them going. Both parties are going to be the downfall of the US.

Every form of government in a perfect society has a very high chance of success and prosperity, be it democracy, monarchy, socialism, communism, whatever. If when the influences of the government turn to greed and power and thier interests become influenced by outside parties that the government begins it's decline. I truly believe that our government is in this decline. Without immediate intervention by the people, voting someone in that is not a corporate puppet that will cut down the inflated size of our federal government, I'm afraid we will continue this rapid decline. I can promise you that Newt, Mitt, or Obama will all still work in the interests of the people who pay rather than the people who voted. It's a shame, really.
 

Adam Caramon

Registered User
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
822
Because the American people want to keep the two party system which served them well (not perfect by any stretch of imagination).

I don't get that same feeling. Most people I speak to about our political system recognize that it is far from perfect, but feel powerless to change it.

Ron Paul is now running in the Republican primaries. He is a RINO (Republican In Name Only). He attracts many younger people and many who are not happy with the establishment (both Republican and Democrat). Today, I read that Donald Trump is looking to become a third party candidate in the general election (I hope NOT).

I agree with you about Ron Paul, but I would think that supports the fact that individuals have to join one of the two parties to have any chance of winning. Ron Paul should be running as a Libertarian, but he would have no chance of winning if he did so, therefore he chose the Republican party.

I believe the two party system served us well. In many countries with Parliamentary system, the parties split and sometimes create regional parties. If Regional party "A" is popular in Virginia and regional party "B" is popular in Maryland, they start treating each other like unfriendly nations (a possibility). Such situations have happened in many countries.

I would disagree strongly. From my own perspective, the parliamentary system seems designed to force compromise. Various parties form alliances or blocs with one another in order to get things done. In doing so, they agree on certain issues and then compromise on others. It seems to facilitate middle-of-the-road thinking, which is what ~70% of our country supports.

Also, not to pick threads, but when you say "such situations have happened in many countries", could you provide examples (links preferably)? Often times it seems that people feel that things are one way or another, and thus make assumptions based on their feelings.

Sure, in USA, Corporate money sometimes influence the outcome of elections. Many people conveniently forget the influence and activism of labor unions and the corrupt press.

I grimaced at the word "sometimes". I may be overly sensitive on this issue, but I think special interest money is everywhere in our political system and elections. I think Citizens United was one of the worst Supreme Court decisions in my life time.

Also, I don't think that people forget the influence and activism of labor unions, its just that people that tend to agree with labor unions don't see their involvement as a problem. To them, labor unions represent the "working man(woman)", where as corporations represent the 1% (to use a popular term).

As far as the term "corrupt press", I've found that people on the right seem to think that Fox News is "Fair and Balanced" while believing that MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, etc, are "the liberal media". The people on the left are the exact opposite. As such "corrupt press" tends to be a very subjective term based on who is using it.

In 2008 Democratic primaries, the Mainstream press openly supported Mr. Obama against Mrs. Clinton because they knew Obama is on the far left of the Democratic party.

I followed the 2008 primaries and ensuing general election very closely, and I do not recall an overly slanted media for Mr. Obama over Mrs. Clinton. There was a lot of hype given to Mr. Obama as if he won he would become the first African American president, and many were incredibly excited about that.

However, I also recall a lot of press coverage for Mrs. Clinton, specifically the PUMA (Party Unity My A**) movement.

As far as Mr. Obama being on the "far left" of the Democratic party, I would once again completely disagree. A lot of press coverage in left-leaning media outlets has highlighted how Mr. Obama has caved in over and over to the Republican minority. I don't think he has really done anything that would qualify to label him as "socialist" (compare him to an actual socialist, for example).

Vassago said:
Without immediate intervention by the people, voting someone in that is not a corporate puppet that will cut down the inflated size of our federal government, I'm afraid we will continue this rapid decline. I can promise you that Newt, Mitt, or Obama will all still work in the interests of the people who pay rather than the people who voted. It's a shame, really.

I would agree, but would question what you define as "inflated size of our federal government". I think almost everyone can agree that we need to work on the debt as a number 1 priority. Anywhere we can cut programs and expenditure that do not have a vital purpose or good return on investment is a good start.

However, we still rank terribly compared to the rest of the civilized world in healthcare and education. I don't see anyway of addressing those two issues without increasing the size of the federal government.

And, I would posit, most Americans aren't concerned about "big government", that is more of a talking point. The programs that eat up most of our revenue as a country are the same programs that most people tend to support (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc).

People just know they want less government intrusion in their life, and they want to pay less in taxes. But, they also want a lot of services from the government, so it becomes a sticky situation.


Lastly, as we're discussing our election system, I had an idea a while back. I wouldn't be surprised if someone else had thought of this in the past, so I won't claim it is 100% unique, however:

  • Many Americans seem to think that more than 2 parties would be a good idea,
  • Voter turnout is low because people think their vote doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things,
  • Few people want to "waste" their vote on a 3rd party candidate.
Assuming the above is true, what would seem to be an ideal system would be one where each voter receives a First Choice vote and a Second Choice vote. You cast your First Choice vote for the person you actually want to win. If the person you cast your First Choice vote for does not win, your Second Choice vote kicks in.

For example, an individual could cast their First Choice vote for a 3rd party candidate, and their Second Choice vote for Democrat or Repub.

If the 3rd party candidate received enough votes to win, then great. If not, no one wasted their vote as their Second Choice vote kicks in. Every voter still only gets 1 vote, so no one is given an unfair advantage.

It would seem to allow voters to break out of the "lesser of two evils" we all seem to complain about.
 
Last edited:

Steve R.

Retired
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,687
Bush started the bailouts and Obama kept them going. Both parties are going to be the downfall of the US.

Every form of government in a perfect society has a very high chance of success and prosperity, be it democracy, monarchy, socialism, communism, whatever. If when the influences of the government turn to greed and power and thier interests become influenced by outside parties that the government begins it's decline. I truly believe that our government is in this decline. Without immediate intervention by the people, voting someone in that is not a corporate puppet that will cut down the inflated size of our federal government, I'm afraid we will continue this rapid decline. I can promise you that Newt, Mitt, or Obama will all still work in the interests of the people who pay rather than the people who voted. It's a shame, really.
Quite True.
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
Please forgive my grammar and spelling errors above. I am American, after all. ;)
 

Jacob Mathai

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
546
America has an aging population. Thousands are retiring every day (called Baby Boomers). Some retirees are rich, but many are struggling financially due to Federal Reserve policies. Federal Reserve (or FED) is keeping interest rates very low. Now the average 5 Year CD (certificate of Deposit) interest rate is around 1.5 percent. Consequently, many seniors are spending their money (and depleting assets) to maintain their standard of living. An interest rate of 4 to 5 percent would have been a big blessing for them.

The seniors are not experts in Stock/bond investments and they are afraid to take risks at their age.

We also see that sometimes the rich gets richer through smart investments. The old rules of wealth creation have changed lately with information economy and use of internet. Knowledge is power now.
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
America has an aging population. Thousands are retiring every day (called Baby Boomers). Some retirees are rich, but many are struggling financially due to Federal Reserve policies. Federal Reserve (or FED) is keeping interest rates very low. Now the average 5 Year CD (certificate of Deposit) interest rate is around 1.5 percent. Consequently, many seniors are spending their money (and depleting assets) to maintain their standard of living. An interest rate of 4 to 5 percent would have been a big blessing for them.

The seniors are not experts in Stock/bond investments and they are afraid to take risks at their age.

We also see that sometimes the rich gets richer through smart investments. The old rules of wealth creation have changed lately with information economy and use of internet. Knowledge is power now.

Yet, the overwhelming majority of the population is still in the 18-35 range and can heavily influence the election, or outright win it if more people in this age range voted. This is the message I keep trying to spread to my peers. If you don't like the way the country is right now, get out and vote, and stop allowing the older generation to control your government through voting. They are the ones that consistently vote for people out of touch with the 21st century because they are also out of touch. (Not everyone, obviously, but a huge majority are)
 

Fifty2One

Legend in my own mind
Local time
Today, 12:35
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,412
If you want a higher percentage of people to vote you have to remove that right from everyone for a few years. Until it is lost people will take it for granted and be complacent that everything is alright. You will be wasting your time and energy trying to talk someone into using this very valuable right, most know they have it but will say 'meh' or feel it is pointless.

Yet, the overwhelming majority of the population is still in the 18-35 range and can heavily influence the election, or outright win it if more people in this age range voted. This is the message I keep trying to spread to my peers. If you don't like the way the country is right now, get out and vote, and stop allowing the older generation to control your government through voting. They are the ones that consistently vote for people out of touch with the 21st century because they are also out of touch. (Not everyone, obviously, but a huge majority are)
 

Jacob Mathai

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
546
Yet, the overwhelming majority of the population is still in the 18-35 range and can heavily influence the election, or outright win it if more people in this age range voted. This is the message I keep trying to spread to my peers. If you don't like the way the country is right now, get out and vote, and stop allowing the older generation to control your government through voting. They are the ones that consistently vote for people out of touch with the 21st century because they are also out of touch. (Not everyone, obviously, but a huge majority are)
I agree with Vassago.
 

pbaldy

Wino Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 12:35
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
Messages
36,126
As far as Mr. Obama being on the "far left" of the Democratic party, I would once again completely disagree. A lot of press coverage in left-leaning media outlets has highlighted how Mr. Obama has caved in over and over to the Republican minority. I don't think he has really done anything that would qualify to label him as "socialist" (compare him to an actual socialist, for example).

I think there's a flaw in your logic. You wouldn't classify a president based on what they were able to get through congress, you'd classify them based on their beliefs. If Ron Paul were to get elected and 3 years later hadn't been able to get any real "Libertarian" legislation passed, would you say he wasn't a Libertarian (or label of your choice)?

However, we still rank terribly compared to the rest of the civilized world in healthcare and education. I don't see anyway of addressing those two issues without increasing the size of the federal government.

Your conclusion is based on what I would call a flawed premise: that more federal government will help. In my view, we'd be better off with less federal government (perhaps more local). All the federal government is good at is creating bloat and waste.

Vassago said:
the overwhelming majority of the population is still in the 18-35 range

I'm curious what you mean by this, as it certainly isn't accurate from a numerical perspective. The two largest groups by percentage are the 35-39 and 40-44 groups (Google population pyramid).
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
If you want a higher percentage of people to vote you have to remove that right from everyone for a few years. Until it is lost people will take it for granted and be complacent that everything is alright. You will be wasting your time and energy trying to talk someone into using this very valuable right, most know they have it but will say 'meh' or feel it is pointless.

That's your opinion. From my personal experience, I've had very good success in talking people into why they should vote, even if their views are not my own. I've made voters out of quite a few of my friends and colleagues.
 

Jacob Mathai

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
546
Bush started the bailouts and Obama kept them going. Both parties are going to be the downfall of the US.

Every form of government in a perfect society has a very high chance of success and prosperity, be it democracy, monarchy, socialism, communism, whatever. If when the influences of the government turn to greed and power and thier interests become influenced by outside parties that the government begins it's decline. I truly believe that our government is in this decline. Without immediate intervention by the people, voting someone in that is not a corporate puppet that will cut down the inflated size of our federal government, I'm afraid we will continue this rapid decline. I can promise you that Newt, Mitt, or Obama will all still work in the interests of the people who pay rather than the people who voted. It's a shame, really.
Let me put in my two cents in this discussion.
Communism is wealth redistribution by government using force. Lenin and Stalin "liquidated" the rich of that time. The new rich were the politicians and the military. The communist system of Government in USSR collapsed in the 1990's because the economic system collapsed. In the Communist system, there will be no private enterprise allowed.
Socialism is also wealth redistribution by Government using policy decisions (tax, subsidies, entitlements, licenses, quotas, permits, regulations etc.). Usually socialism allows some private enterprise under the strict control of the Government. Profits will be regulated. The politicians are smart to understand wealth is created by private enterprise. The private businesses also provide a rich source of income for politicians (bribes, kickbacks, campaign contributions etc.). The best jobs in a socialist country are Government jobs (high salary, pension, job security etc.). Usually corruption is rampant. The bureaucracy will be hard to deal with for the average citizen. Many socialist countries are now allowing more private enterprises (after seeing what happened to USSR).
So, it is a fallacy to assume every form of Government is good at the beginning.
 
Last edited:

Jacob Mathai

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
546
I think there's a flaw in your logic. You wouldn't classify a president based on what they were able to get through congress, you'd classify them based on their beliefs. If Ron Paul were to get elected and 3 years later hadn't been able to get any real "Libertarian" legislation passed, would you say he wasn't a Libertarian (or label of your choice)?



Your conclusion is based on what I would call a flawed premise: that more federal government will help. In my view, we'd be better off with less federal government (perhaps more local). All the federal government is good at is creating bloat and waste.



I'm curious what you mean by this, as it certainly isn't accurate from a numerical perspective. The two largest groups by percentage are the 35-39 and 40-44 groups (Google population pyramid).

Good response (which I was not capable of). Thanks Pbaldy.
 

Vassago

Former Staff Turned AWF Retiree
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
4,751
Let me put in my two cents in this discussion.
Communism is wealth redistribution by government using force. Lenin and Stalin "liquidated" the rich of that time. The new rich were the politicians and the military. The communist system of Government in USSR collapsed in the 1990's because the economic system collapsed. In the Communist system, there will be no private enterprise allowed.
Socialism is also wealth redistribution by Government using policy decisions (tax, subsidies, entitlements, licenses, quotas, permits, regulations etc.). Usually socialism allows some private enterprise under the strict control of the Government. Profits will be regulated. The politicians are smart to understand wealth is created by private enterprise. The private businesses also provide a rich source of income for politicians (bribes, kickbacks, campaign contributions etc.). The best jobs in a socialist country are Government jobs (high salary, pension, job security etc.). Usually corruption is rampant. The bureaucracy will be hard to deal with for the average citizen. Many socialist countries are now allowing more private enterprises (after seeing what happened to USSR).
So, it is a fallacy to assume every form of Government is good at the beginning.

I disagree. Using real world examples of a general ideal is impossible because there are too many outside factors to consider. USSR had major success and growth for nearly a century, only failing because of political instability, not really related to the ideal of a socialistic society.

As I said, the IDEAL is sound, but only if the players involved are in agreement. It can succeed and be highly effective for all involved. It would never happen in the US because not everyone would be on board, including me. It would fail.
 

Steve R.

Retired
Local time
Today, 15:35
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,687
Finally :), a Washington Post opinion piece by Martin Klingst that underscores my concerns over dubious Europe bashing. The GOP’s ‘Europe’ is a land of make-believe"

Mr. Klingst writes: "Lately it seems that not a day goes by without a Republican presidential candidate portraying Europe as a socialist nightmare. Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum paint a picture of the Old World as unfree, strangulated by bureaucratic and inefficient welfare systems, and unable to reform and modernize. To these Republicans, Europe seems to be the antipode to everything America is meant to be. ...

... My problem as a European living in the United States is that it is not Joe the Plumber who is bashing Europe but three longtime politicians who want to be president — people who should know better. ...

... But framing Europe simply as inflexible and outdated, or backward and socialistic, is shortsightedand wrong. Romney, Gingrich and Santorum should know as well as anyone that the globe is no longer flat.
"

We unfortunately have to seriously question what those running for office say. To be fair and balanced; Obama falsely claims to be "reducing the national debt" while actually continuing deficit spending that increase the national debt.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom