Shout-Out from DevHut (1 Viewer)

[NauticalGent]

Making my rounds this morning, I noticed that Daniel Pineault put a in recommendation to our favorite site. If you have a moment, drop by and thank him! I didn't know that he was aware of this site...

 

[Isaac]

Stack Overflow, in my experience, is great for black and white questions, but for true back and forth discussions, not so much.

Well-said. I've said it before and I know it's brutal in its honesty, but there is a pro and con side.
Stack Overflow is more accurate and expert on the whole , because it uses a system that lends itself to broad peer review and the systemic, unapologetic RANKING of that peer review - thus, the best stuff floats to the top via its (somewhat harsh) voting system and all the restrictions and well-thought-out components of how and when you can do something.
For that, I give them credit ... But, it goes both ways. It can be VERY harsh and unforgiving for newcomers, middlecomers, or even a latecomer who lacks the talent for writing the "near-perfect question". One tiny example is the idea that, if you have a SQL question, post enough code (including DDL) so that someone can paste your question directly into SSMS and hit F5 and see the precise issue you are having. Well, 90% of the people who have SQL questions find that requirement almost harder than the essence of their question! Yet, it does guarantee a crystal-clear question with a rank-able best set of responses.

AWF is much more friendly, and because of that, we serve a large and legitimate market of people who have semi-answerable questions but haven't yet developed the discipline in forming a good question. I also love that AWF allows a bit of variety on its site.

I also prefer AWF for the fact that a post remains eternally open, forever available for an additional thought/suggestion/idea to be posted.
And they do grow over time! Stack Overflow's open-and-shut method forecloses this possibility (for their own reasons), but I like the benefit AWF gives in this way. UA did this too.

Historically, UtterAccess would have been my goto, but since its revamp a couple years back seems to have been abandoned by the owner and is a shell of its former self, full of unaddressed/ignored issues

Glad to see I'm not the only one who has mentioned this sad state of affairs. It was my go-to for a number of years.
My take on it is pretty simple ... One of the top VIP's on the site (or 2) gradually became the dominant force/authority. At the same time, he was learning to code in other languages. Little by little he began thinking "I can do this myself and promote my own abilities and my own 'software' business" - except he was long before the proper time. He should have had the humility and self-awareness to continue using commercially available Forum software when he was nowhere near ready to roll his own. Ego won that discussion, and ergo ... A highly dysfunctional and aesthetically dismal site. One of the reasons I think this, is I remember interacting with him many times prior to this big change. IMHO, his "I'm the best programmer in the world" personality, and the ultimate decision to try to program the site himself, are not a coincidence. Rather than acknowledge the mistake and roll back, he pressed on, digging the hole deeper.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And I, on the other hand, have never found a single useful answer on StackOverflow.

I used to be a regular contributor to ExpertsExchange. Then they remade their site and Access totally lost support. Then they went "free". Apparently they're not free any more but I never went back.

 

[Isaac]

Admittedly Stack Overflow is not a resource I would use for VBA or Access questions. Their rigid structural enforcement for defining questions and scenarios simply isn't a place many Access developers can call home. AWF, UA are more welcoming for that purpose.
I think it has to do with the type of code, too. With FE design there is a lot of theory, philosophy that comes into play. (At least in my opinion). A question about a Form control might easily inspire me to write a post on anticipating the needs of the user in context and designing accordingly.
In contrast, in T-SQL questions, it is generally always possible to post code that would allow others to 100% re-create the problem or scenario. Leading to places like S.O. almost requiring that your question be entirely re-produce able by anyone, which obviously doesn't work for an Access db.

For T-SQL, I usually see very knowledgeable responses on S.O. as compared to other sites. Generally the answers are already there so I don't need to post.
I did try to use SQLServerCentral a few times, but got such a good spanking when asking my first question it kind of dimmed my enthusiasm.
In fact the answer was so hard, someone PM'ed me, apologizing for the other guy's behavior, with a message something like "Please excuse so-and-so, he's famous but also an a-hole and talks to everyone like that", it was funny.

Some of these sites can almost more be thought of as where experts ask other experts. Their bar is high and it just isn't a fit for many.
Or they require too much DDL when posting, many people with T-SQL questions haven't even used DDL.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

I find the freestyle, informal approach of members on Access World Forums invigorating.

I've been on the other formal type sites and it's so bloody boring!

On AWF, you get a chance to get to know your fellow members. Recently some AWF members got together for drinks in Reading and this has happened relatively frequently over the years.

I can't see this happening on the formally operated sites.

I suppose if you work in a strict and restricted environment where they have to be very careful with what you load up on your PC, AWF is probably not the go to place! You don't want your boss leaning over your shoulder whilst you're looking through the jokes thread!

I have had several informal online meetings with AWF members and no-one is what you expect...

I can see that both approaches have there merits and disadvantages, but I for one will stick to AWF!

 

[Jon]

I tried to engineer the site so there is a friendly community feel to it. Yes, I know many probably don't like the lack of the ban hammer for trolls, but I think that has largely worked out ok. My personal opinion is that although Reddit is hugely popular, the moderators have become monsters over there! I'm finding that a large percentage of threads that I start just get nuked by the mods. This overzealousness deters me from bothering to post.

So, I suppose you get the choice of a more clinical approach to Q&A from places like StackOverflow, and a warmer response from places like AWF. Both have their place, but I hoped to create an environment here where people can have a home from home, where they can regularly hangout with fellow members, talk shop, but also chat about other things that interest them.

 

[NauticalGent]

I find the freestyle, informal approach of members on Access World Forums invigorating.

I've been on the other formal type sites and it's so bloody boring!

On AWF, you get a chance to get to know your fellow members. Recently some AWF members got together for drinks in Reading and this has happened relatively frequently over the years.

I can't see this happening on the formally operated sites.

I suppose if you work in a strict and restricted environment where they have to be very careful with what you load up on your PC, AWF is probably not the go to place! You don't want your boss leaning over your shoulder whilst you're looking through the jokes thread!

I have had several informal online meetings with AWF members and no-one is what you expect...

I can see that both approaches have there merits and disadvantages, but I for one will stick to AWF!

Spot on Tony. I would dare say that the vast majority of new-comers to this site are extreme newbies that have dared to venture out into the great unknown that is Access where most office workers are too scared to. Because most of the responses are relatively down-to-earth, a lot of them are not scared away.

We DO have some {perceived) bullies, some class clowns and a really mean schoolmarms to keep it all balance...and it is that balance that makes AWF so appealing to me.

 

[Isaac]

We DO have some {perceived) bullies, some class clowns and a really mean schoolmarms to keep it all balance...and it is that balance that makes AWF so appealing to me

That was hilarious, for thick skins.
You only forgot about the prolix old doc and the also-tedious loquacious religious zealot

 

[NauticalGent]

That was hilarious, for thick skins.
You only forgot about the prolix old doc and the also-tedious loquacious religious zealot

I was trying to keep it with Access only, but we are talking about the site as a whole, so rock on!

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

and it is that balance that makes AWF so appealing to me

I do find some people "difficult" John, but it's true what you say, it's the Balanced mix that makes it perfect!!!

The next time I see a certain member deliberately baiting our American members, I will just bite down hard on my tongue and remember your wise words. .. in fact I think I'll be proactive, I'm going to go and find some of his posts and give them a "like".....

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

find some of his posts and give them a "like".....

He's going to wonder what on earth's going on!

I've had to stop because it could be interpreted as I like what he says, and that's not the case!

 

[NauticalGent]

He's going to wonder what on earth's going on!

I've had to stop because it could be interpreted as I like what he says, and that's not the case!

We would know the difference, trust me.

 

[Pat Hartman]

But the sad thing is, the "difficult" person won't.

 

[Isaac]

I've discovered that Col is a more nuanced person than I originally thought.
It took me a while just to understand how much he was baiting what he views as gullibly-frustra-table Americans.
(Although I do sometimes wonder if the shoe was on the other foot whether he would find it so funny....the other day he made a post about UK healthcare including Dental work is not free, and I was sorely tempted to make some comments on that, as not only is there a stereotype of Brits with bad teeth but visiting there I found there is some truth to it) - but I didn't, as my goal on AWF is not to actually hurt people's feelings. Although sometimes there are hard truths that may hurt as collateral damage in political discussions, but the hard truth is different than deliberate sabotage.

Anyway, I've decided (I'm one of the last people on AWF to decide this, so Pat, don't misunderstand, I only mean this to a slight degree, take it with a grain of salt) that he can be somewhat interesting to interact with, despite the having to read between the lines of intent so much that it becomes annoying.

Some of my earlier posts in year(s) past about Col have been extremely harsh. In light of my Christian teaching to be loving & forgiving toward people, I've considered going back and editing some of them to make myself look better. Then I realized that lying to make myself look better was a much more serious thing than leaving up angry posts and decided against it to keep myself honest.

I've had to remind myself he was brought up as many people around the world are, to be taught and emphasized the 'worst' aspects of the United States. He probably sees some of the worst US folks as tourists, behaving in some of the dumbest possible ways. While we in the USA might be acutely aware of the massive amount of charitable giving that is a unique cultural American trait, the independent pioneering spirit, the wisdom of our founding principles and the impressive strength of such a young country....He is like other non-Americans; he can only process the information that he has been exposed to. He has gone through hard times in his personal life. He is older and sometimes vast experience breeds extreme cynicism, with good reason.

I diverge from Col's viewpoints on things like the positive value of the United States, and probably a dozen other issues, mostly political and probably almost all things religious. But I recognize that each human being, at any given moment, is generally pursuing and speaking the things they sincerely believe are true and best. He has made a few good points about American society, and although he could probably benefit from some self-effacing humor for the purpose of becoming honest about what's wrong with his own country and what's better about others, then again, so could we all.

 

[Jon]

There is also the possibility that when someone posts something provocative, they do not actually believe what they post, or at least not to the full extent that the content suggests. Unless you know someones motive, it's hard to know.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Everyone stirs the pot, its not unique to Col

 

[NauticalGent]

Everyone stirs the pot, its not unique to Col

We had a saying in my Naval Unit: "He who stirs the pot must lick the spoon"

 

[Isaac]

Everyone stirs the pot, its not unique to Col

Ehh .... Not sure about that, his is a good bit unique in some ways, but I'm willing to give myself the opposite of the benefit of the doubt, my perspective may be affected by my own biases.

 

[Isaac]

We had a saying in my Naval Unit: "He who stirs the pot must lick the spoon"

I should tell my wife that, each time she stores a little jar of sweetened condensed milk in the fridge, it gets lower over time.
Guess that's the toddler inside me, just can't resist a spoonful every couple days. I swear it's good for me!

 

[KitaYama]

I've discovered that Col is a more nuanced person than I originally thought.
It took me a while just to understand how much he was baiting what he views as gullibly-frustra-table Americans.
(Although I do sometimes wonder if the shoe was on the other foot whether he would find it so funny....the other day he made a post about UK healthcare including Dental work is not free, and I was sorely tempted to make some comments on that, as not only is there a stereotype of Brits with bad teeth but visiting there I found there is some truth to it) - but I didn't, as my goal on AWF is not to actually hurt people's feelings. Although sometimes there are hard truths that may hurt as collateral damage in political discussions, but the hard truth is different than deliberate sabotage.

Anyway, I've decided (I'm one of the last people on AWF to decide this, so Pat, don't misunderstand, I only mean this to a slight degree, take it with a grain of salt) that he can be somewhat interesting to interact with, despite the having to read between the lines of intent so much that it becomes annoying.

Some of my earlier posts in year(s) past about Col have been extremely harsh. In light of my Christian teaching to be loving & forgiving toward people, I've considered going back and editing some of them to make myself look better. Then I realized that lying to make myself look better was a much more serious thing than leaving up angry posts and decided against it to keep myself honest.

I've had to remind myself he was brought up as many people around the world are, to be taught and emphasized the 'worst' aspects of the United States. He probably sees some of the worst US folks as tourists, behaving in some of the dumbest possible ways. While we in the USA might be acutely aware of the massive amount of charitable giving that is a unique cultural American trait, the independent pioneering spirit, the wisdom of our founding principles and the impressive strength of such a young country....He is like other non-Americans; he can only process the information that he has been exposed to. He has gone through hard times in his personal life. He is older and sometimes vast experience breeds extreme cynicism, with good reason.

I diverge from Col's viewpoints on things like the positive value of the United States, and probably a dozen other issues, mostly political and probably almost all things religious. But I recognize that each human being, at any given moment, is generally pursuing and speaking the things they sincerely believe are true and best. He has made a few good points about American society, and although he could probably benefit from some self-effacing humor for the purpose of becoming honest about what's wrong with his own country and what's better about others, then again, so could we all.

I've been here only for one year. And I don't know him that well, but from what I saw in his posts, he respects the royal family very much (like every other British).
I'm really interested in what he has to say about Spare (the book).