THE BIBLE (1 Viewer)

[Uncle Gizmo]

Jordan Peterson refers to the Bible often in his lectures.

He has changed my perception of this ancient artefact.

In my youth, I came to the conclusion that it was basically a tool used by men to manipulate society, where in fact it is the gathered wisdom of humanity condensed and presented in memorable stories to preserve wisdom for all.

As and when I find them I will post snippets of insight into the Bible in this thread. I suspect most will be from Jordan.

Here is the first:-

"The BIBLE isn't a BOOK,It's a Collection of BOOKS!"-Jordan Peterson with joe Rogan #shorts

------------------------------Jordan B. Peterson is a Canadian professor of psychology, clinical psychologist, YouTube personality, best-selling author and h...

youtube.com

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Before there were books, it was the duty of the village StoryTeller (or whatever name they used for the position) to tell stories of the culture and to teach the children of the next generation some of the wisdom and cultural rules. In those days there were no libraries because the earliest villages pre-dated writing. Cave art doesn't count as writing so much as it is a museum, in the sense that it was pictographic and more like a picture of some event without context. Like a picture of Napoleon at Waterloo, or Washington Crossing the Delaware. Images lacking context. If you knew the story, the pictures made perfect sense.

Kids in that era didn't have books, laptops, smart phones, or museums. The StoryTeller's job was to amuse, amaze, and instruct the restless kids who gathered around the nightly campfire. Of course, eventually the writing of words became a "thing" and at that point it became possible to transcribe the stories of the StoryTeller for posterity. But who knows how many variations had crept in to those many stories by the time of the transcription? Who knows how many generations preceded the transcriptions?

I agree with the "it's a collection of books" comment. Those books are like Aesop's Fables or Grimm's Faerie Tales in that they give insights into the wisdom of a culture told in a way that children could understand. I recognize the Bible as an attempt at capturing the originally oral history of a people. However, to me it is the history of a people who believed in God and thus captured their beliefs about God. Again, I have no problem with what they actually captured. There is no proof that the "divinity" beliefs were true, however.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

But who knows how many variations had crept in to those many stories by the time of the transcription?

I am not equipped to debate this! I don't know enough about it, and I am relatively new to the ideas of Jordan Peterson. But I'll have a go and explain it the way I understand it. The stories in the Bible are not stories about something that happened, they are meta stories in the sense that they represent the human condition, the mistakes that humans make, and the knowledge of how to deal with and repair those mistakes. Knowledge which has been gathered, century after century and used to perfect the meta story, which is passed into Society. Each story will be refined and made suitable for each generation, each culture, but the essence of the story is what is transmitted by this meta format... As I alluded to at the beginning of this passage, I have probably got the wrong end of the Stick as usual!

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

The stories in the Bible are not stories about something that happened,

Most people know the story of Adam and Eve and this YouTube:-

Jordan Peterson - The Garden of Eden​

Jordan Peterson interprets it, giving it modern interpretation.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I am not equipped to debate this! I don't know enough about it, and I am relatively new to the ideas of Jordan Peterson. But I'll have a go and explain it the way I understand it. The stories in the Bible are not stories about something that happened, they are meta stories in the sense that they represent the human condition, the mistakes that humans make, and the knowledge of how to deal with and repair those mistakes. Knowledge which has been gathered, century after century and used to perfect the meta story, which is passed into Society. Each story will be refined and made suitable for each generation, each culture, but the essence of the story is what is transmitted by this meta format... As I alluded to at the beginning of this passage, I have probably got the wrong end of the Stick as usual!

Your answer is not inconsistent with my viewpoint. The meta-story long ago lost connection with any details of the "true" story (whatever it was). Cases in point: The story of Jesus in the Bible is strikingly similar in some of its details to the story of Horus (of Egypt) which pre-dates Jesus by about 1200 years, give or take a couple. The story of Noah's Flood parallels the flood from the time of Gilgamesh of Babylon, which was again much earlier than the Biblical version.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

The story of Jesus in the Bible is strikingly similar in some of its details to the story of Horus (of Egypt)

But this is exactly what I'm saying also. These stories are stories told over centuries, over millennia, stories that have been adapted for each and every culture on the way through. In fact Jordan Peterson explains the story of Horus , the God, I think he was blinded by his brother and sent to the underworld. I think one of the brothers killed his father or something. Peterson examines this story in fascinating and interesting detail. If I can find the link I will reduce it for you I will post it for you...

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

However, to me it is the history of a people who believed in God and thus captured their beliefs about God.

Jordan Peterson also explains the story of the Ten Commandments.

Jordan Peterson |The Ten Commandments​

It is a fascinating explanation. My recollection of Jordan's explanation, which might well be a bit distorted, so take it with a pinch of salt, is that Moses, as leader, presided in judgement over people's problems in a court. Jordan Peterson's Theory is that it was whilst carrying out these judgements that Moses worked out the rules, which later became the Ten Commandments.

But this is the very interesting bit that Jordan relates. Background:-There's the story of The Rat that giggles when you tickle it, and then there's another story where you put a big rat and a small rat together and they will play, but if the big rat does not let the small rat win at least 30% of the time, then the small rat gives up and won't play anymore. The point is that the rats don't sit down and decide "I've only one one game out of 10 so I'm pissed off, I'm going to go and sit in the corner", the rat knows that it's wrong it's not as a thought, but as an instinct...

What Moses ferreted out in his is presiding in judgement over his people's was what the people's Instincts told him what was fair and just. HOW?

I have no idea how this court was arranged, but I would imagine it must have been similar to the way courts her arranged these days, the audience, then in front of the audience there defendant and the plaintive, with their backs to the audience. The judge sat in front presiding over the court, viewing the the two combatants and with a good view of the entire audience.

From this position, Moses, and indeed any Judge could get feedback from the audience, insight on the right or wrongness of the case. Possibly an indication of whether they thought someone was lying or telling the truth.

I like watching Judge Judy I find her very fair. It was after hearing Jordan Peterson's explanation of how Moses may well have come up with the Ten Commandments that I noticed that Judge Judy is in the position I outlined above, sat facing the audience. She could pick up on subtle cues from members of the audience. Someone might not be in agreement with something and shake their head in disagreement. someone may grimace in disgust. Not only does it make sense that Moses had the opportunity to develop the Ten Commandments from his court experience, it also makes a lot of sense that the audience gave him feedback, feedback via their emotions, their Instincts. These Instincts were then turned into law... The point is, no group sat down and had it out and formed the laws. That's an important distinction, it means the laws came from the whole community the instinctive knowledge of the community, deep meaningful Instincts that permeate the culture. Thousands if not millions of years of instinctive behaviour condensed it to the 10 Commandments.

I found this YouTube of Judge Judy presiding over a case and you can see what I mean at the time index 5:30 you can see the audience reacting behind the defendant and the plaintive.

Top 20 Times Judge Judy Owned People in Court​

 

[Eugene-LS]

The Bible is a collection of Jewish fairy tales about how to behave toward those in authority.
Very handy for maintaining the "right order of things".

 

[Mike Krailo]

It's pretty hard to explain away how in the Book of Revelation it is explaining how things will end and now all of the sudden, there is this thing called digital currency. It's not hard to imagine a device on your hand or forehead that would make this final revelation more than just a story.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Jordan Peterson interprets it, giving it modern interpretation.

And yet he totally missed the other scenario that did not play out. Had they actually listened to God in the first place and not the snake, the snake would have never been a predator at all and nothing for them to have to deal with and they would have learned everything in good time. Instead, no more Eden and now they do have to deal with predators and all of the things God was taking care of for them including the garden itself. Hmmm, kind of like error handling in Access. What would we do without error handling?

Also there was no belief in God problem back then as God was actually with them.

 

[AccessBlaster]

With every reset, we seem to forget more and more of our past. We used to rely on the stars and gut feelings to help guide us. Sadly in the name of progress, we have intentionally dulled our own senses.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Also there was no belief in God problem back then as God was actually with them.

Or at least they BELIEVED that He was there.

 

[Cronk]

Re the reference to the village story teller passing down the collective history to children (and future story tellers), it reminds me of the first world war British story of the message passed down the trench by one person after another to the next from the front line to head quarters. It started off as "send reinforcements, we're going to advance" and what was delivered to headquarters "send three and four pence, we're going to a dance". (The three and four pence meant three shillings and four pence in the pre decimal currency of the British pound shillings and pence and was the equivalent of about 17 pence or 0.17 pounds in the present currency)

 

[Mike Krailo]

Or at least they BELIEVED that He was there.

How then did they get the instruction not to eat of the fruit of that particular tree? Was it a figment of their imagination that told them? Come on man

 

[AccessBlaster]

The good news everything in the bible is true, the bad news is we misinterpreted who the creator is. Modern words had not been invented to describe what really happened.

What's more plausible, an old white guy in the sky determining the fate of mankind, or a little gray with a petri dish? If the little gray can traverse the universe at will surely they would have gene-splicing capabilities.

My only problem with this scenario is what about Jesus? I'm still working on that.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Re the reference to the village story teller passing down the collective history to children (and future story tellers), it reminds me of the first world war British story of the message passed down the trench by one person after another to the next from the front line to head quarters. It started off as "send reinforcements, we're going to advance" and what was delivered to headquarters "send three and four pence, we're going to a dance". (The three and four pence meant three shillings and four pence in the pre decimal currency of the British pound shillings and pence and was the equivalent of about 17 pence or 0.17 pounds in the present currency)

That thought crossed my mind as well, but you would be amazed at how these particular stories have actually stayed in tact over the generations (not in translation exactly). There are many more such writings that could have made the book a lot bigger. You could argue that words get twisted in translation, but we can simply go back to the original text in the original languages they were written and see for ourselves.

Our constitution in the US, for example, it's still the same constitution and still has the same meaning behind it but anyone can bastardize it's meaning and take it completely out of context for their own benefit.

In the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And yet many think this means that people who serve in the government or public schools or otherwise public entities cannot display their own faith publicly and must be silent about it. They site the "separation of church and state". This is not at all what the drafters of this amendment were saying at all. In fact, if you look at the different iterations and revisions of this amendment alone, you could clearly see they were talking about. No one denomination of Christianity could rule over all of the others and they did not want a monarchy of the church to come down on the people.

In Canada, they have already gone all in on CRT and putting into their institutions and making it a crime speak out against it. That's what a lack of first amendment and utter twisting of word meanings gets you. Sorry for going off topic, just sort of worked out that way.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

How then did they get the instruction not to eat of the fruit of that particular tree? Was it a figment of their imagination that told them? Come on man

How did they get the story of the Exodus when Israeli archaeologists have concluded that after years of thorough study, there never were Hebrew slaves in Egypt?

They got the instruction about that tree from a talking snake? Aw, come on, man!

Mike, I have no problem with your belief until you try to argue that it should be my belief. Raw logic suggests that even Genesis is wrong. Application of Occam's Razor tells us that much.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Doc, that's fine. It is also a fact well known how critical the moons placement is in our orbit around earth. A hair closer or further away and we wouldn't be here in the watercooler.

While occum's razor might make you feel better about your current view, it doesn't undermine truth contained in those nice little stories.

Some choose to believe we are all just biological meat bags that evolved out of primordial soup. Some believe they actually have a soul. Science cannot measure or see the soul so they conclude it dosen't exist. They just need to try harder. Just like those Israeli Archaeologists. That probably makes some feel comfortable with their current view. Feel free to believe what they tell you if it makes you feel good.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

even Genesis is wrong

God said let There Be Light! Now when the big bang went off you couldn't get any more Light than that could you. How did they know that then?

 

[Eugene-LS]

How did they get the story of the Exodus when Israeli archaeologists have concluded that after years of thorough study, there never were Hebrew slaves in Egypt?

There is no word "Egypt" in the original sources, just as there is no word "Slavery" - it was composed afterwards ...
In fact, the Bible has been rewritten so many times to please those in power that it's hard to understand it now.
...
Very handy!
You can interpret it either way as you like.