The Qur'an

[The_Doc_Man]

how interesting! got a link to an article where I can read about this? that would catch my attention greatly!

Search for JWST and maybe add in "+distant galaxy" - but beware that it is still conjectural at this point. The finding of galaxies that appear to be older than 13.75 BN years is still being peer-reviewed. But some of the big names in astronomy and cosmology are on the bandwagon. And of course the textbook publishers are groaning because they know that a lot of their publications will get dumped relatively soon.

 

[Jon]

From memory, I think they were saying that there were much larger galaxies in the early state of the Universe than they thought would be possible. Consequently, it casts some uncertainty over the big bang narrative being the same as before.

 

[aziz rasul]

And there is YOUR problem - that even in the face of certain change, religion stays in the dark ages philosophically.

Does it really or are YOU simply in denial because it's easy!

 

[aziz rasul]

but beware that it is still conjectural at this point.

Hmmm, so the discovery of earlier galaxies does not disprove the fact that the big bang occurred. You seemed to have made no meaningful point that changes anything from the status quo.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Does it really or are YOU simply in denial because it's easy!

Denial isn't easy when you were raised in and live in a religious household for 35 years. It took me a lot of contemplation (heavily laced with disappointment) when I carefully read the Bible during my mother's slow decline through the stages of Alzheimer's Disease. I was looking for help, comfort, guidance, and answers. None were anywhere to be found (unless you count empty statements) and I finally figured out that there are two ways to look at the Bible (and the Qur'an).

First and simplest, you could say that they are stories about God or Allah. Second, you could say that they were stories told by and about people who believed in God or Allah, having no proof of existence of a deity and unable to understand how some things work - so they turned towards a supernatural explanation that is as hollow as a termite-ridden weeping willow tree.

As we learn more, the boundaries on that inability to understand recede in the distance. Despite continuing demonstrable advances in science as a way of explaining the unexplainable, religious adherents are the ones who remain in denial.

Yes, thanks to those recent discoveries, we have yet again proved this point: Science is a moving target. But I think you would say that as though it is a BAD thing. Science goes forward until it finds it has made a mistake. (Which can happen!) When that happens, we retreat, regroup, analyze, research, and come forward with a new explanation that is better at fitting the facts. Case in point: phlogiston theory, which was an early (and very incorrect) explanation of heat generated by combustion.

When religion runs into the inexplicable, the usual mantra is "God works in mysterious ways" or "We are not meant to know the mind of God." I.e. if there IS an answer, YOU aren't going to get it so don't bother to ask. Deflection and diversion are central themes to religious explanations.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I asked ChatGPT to summarize the book of JOB

Certainly! The Book of Job is a part of the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Old Testament. It is a poetic and philosophical work that explores the theme of suffering and the nature of God's justice. The central character is Job, a wealthy and righteous man who undergoes a series of devastating trials, including the loss of his wealth, health, and family.

Job's friends come to comfort him, but their attempts to explain his suffering lead to philosophical discussions about the nature of God, human suffering, and the concept of divine justice. Job, in his anguish, questions God and demands an explanation for his suffering.

In the latter part of the book, God responds to Job from a whirlwind, emphasizing the limitations of human understanding and the vastness of divine wisdom. God's response does not provide a direct answer to Job's questions but asserts the sovereignty and incomprehensibility of the divine plan.

The Book of Job concludes with Job's restoration, as he is blessed with double the prosperity he had before. The overarching message of the book is often seen as a meditation on the mystery of suffering and the importance of trust and faith in God, even in the face of unanswered questions.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Ah, yes... but Job didn't have to read the Bible to find his answers. He got his proof directly and no longer had to deal purely in faith. Besides which, he got the same kind of answer that I just mentioned. "God works in mysterious ways too complex for you to understand." If EVER there was a non-answer, that is a perfect example.

Do you remember your parents telling you "You will understand better when you grow up"? Thanks, but in this case, I won't have a practical answer until I die, at which time it will be too late for the answer to do any good.

 

[aziz rasul]

Muslims are not in denial, we have the Qur'an to guide and enlighten us and ultimately give us success in the Hereafter.

It is normally the Christians who use the phrase "God works in mysterious ways ...", not Muslims.

Science may change as new evidences come to light. However, there are certain scientific facts have a higher chance of being correct as Uncle Gizmo says in #96. After all, The_Doc_Man, you did not disagree with post #60 I gave.

 

[aziz rasul]

If an external entity did not exist then that would suggest that the universe came into being from nothing or that it created itself. As both of these are paradoxes, this suggests to me at least that there has to be an external Creator\Designer that must have brought our universe into being.

In Islam, we believe there is an external entity or universal Creator, who we call God, who has no gender, who is outside His creation e.g. the universe(s) and has certain attributes e.g.,

No Beginning
Uncreated
Self-Sufficient
Independent
All Powerful,
All Knowing
etc.

99 of God's attributes are given in the Qur'an. He has no partners or associates e.g., is not begotten nor does He beget, no children, does not resemble His creation, etc.

He (Ibrahim) said: Nay! your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who brought them into existence, and I am of those who bear witness to this
Qur'an 21:56

35. Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?
36. Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.
Qur'an 52:35-36

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Muslims are not in denial, we have the Qur'an to guide and enlighten us and ultimately give us success in the Hereafter.

It is normally the Christians who use the phrase "God works in mysterious ways ...", not Muslims.

Science may change as new evidences come to light. However, there are certain scientific facts have a higher chance of being correct as Uncle Gizmo says in #96. After all, The_Doc_Man, you did not disagree with post #60 I gave.

This topic has been asked and answered in the "Are you an atheist" thread. I disregarded that discussion then and I disregard it now.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

this suggests to me at least that there has to be an external Creator\Designer that must have brought our universe into being.

And it ALSO immediately leads to the question "From where did THAT external being originate?" Whoever it was, He HAD to be outside of space and time... but where IS that place? Then, when you answer that question by naming a place, the SAME QUESTION applies to the next iteration. And the next, ... and so on, ad nauseam. Religion places the artificial "stopper" in the drain by saying an eternal being did it. But if the UNIVERSE really is eternal (not just the creator), then your creation myths fly apart and you have one hellacious time reconciling your scripture (or, for that matter, the Christian and Jewish scriptures that are part of the Qur'an) with an eternal universe. Even though you had no trouble swallowing an eternal creator.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

If an external entity did not exist then that would suggest that the universe came into being from nothing or that it created itself. As both of these are paradoxes,

And yet the problem is trivially simple. The act of universe creation requires a divine will. But what if the universe ALWAYS existed and therefore was never created at some particular time? You don't need a creator or a creation event in that case.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I won't have a practical answer until I die, at which time it will be too late for the answer to do any good.

My guess is your name was written in the lambs book along time ago, and there's nothing you can do about it, except rebel like the rest of us.

 

[ebs17]

Muslims are not in denial, we have the Qur'an to guide and enlighten us and ultimately give us success in the Hereafter.

If Muslims have the same intellectual leadership and enlightenment, then you are equating all Muslims, including the Taliban, the Iranian Mullahs, the Salafists, the Islamic State, Hamas.
Shiites kill Sunites and vice versa, based on whose leadership.
Women should cover themselves and disguise themselves so that men are not seduced and do not attack these women as sexual objects.
Why doesn't the scriptures or a major spiritual leader say that women are equal beings and creations and of course they shouldn't be attacked?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Why doesn't the scriptures or a major spiritual leader say that women are equal beings and creations and of course they shouldn't be attacked?

Because the current way keeps the women subservient. AND because this behavior is written in the Qur'an, they have the added pressure of being forced to submit to their men because of submission to Allah and thus becoming (approximately) 1/4 of a man in some issues. Because it takes 4 women to accuse a man of ra**. Because a man can have 4 wives. Because women must limit their education. Other little tidbits like that.

Women should cover themselves and disguise themselves so that men are not seduced and do not attack these women as sexual objects.

AND (Allah forbid...) Islamic men need to learn to keep it in their pants and not yield to their base animalistic urges just because a woman shows about 4 cm of skin.

 

[aziz rasul]

This topic has been asked and answered in the "Are you an atheist" thread. I disregarded that discussion then and I disregard it now.

Confirmation of denial then.

And if they deny you, [O Muhammad] - already were messengers denied before you. And to Allaah are returned [all] matters.
Qur’an 35:4

16. And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein: We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
17. When the two receivers receive, seated on the right and on the left.
18. Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record].
19. And the intoxication of death will bring the truth; that is what you were trying to avoid.
20. And the Horn will be blown. That is the Day of [carrying out] the threat.
21. And every soul will come, with it a driver and a witness.
22. [It will be said], "You were certainly in unmindfulness of this, and We have removed from you your cover, so your sight, this Day, is sharp."
23. And his companion, [the angel], will say, "This [record] is what is with me, prepared."
24. [Allah will say], "Throw into Hell every obstinate disbeliever,
Qur'an 50:16-24

 

[aziz rasul]

168. Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allaah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-
169. Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allaah is easy.
170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allaah: believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allaah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allaah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:168-70

If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers."
Qur’an - Surah al-An’aam (Cattle) 6:27

68. And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allaah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?
69. And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allaah is with the doers of good.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Ankabut (The Spider) 29:68-9

 

[aziz rasul]

And it ALSO immediately leads to the question "From where did THAT external being originate?"

God Himself says He has no beginning and is uncreated. If He was created then whoever created God would be the Creator etc. etc. and therefore the universe cannot have come into existence. Hence God cannot have a beginning and is the first uncaused cause.

1. Say He is Allaah the One and Only
2. Allaah the Eternal Absolute
3. He begetteth not nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him
Qur’an - Surah al-Ikhlaas (Sincerity) 112:1-4

 

[aziz rasul]

But what if the universe ALWAYS existed

But it didn't.

 

[aziz rasul]

If Muslims have the same intellectual leadership and enlightenment, then you are equating all Muslims, including the Taliban, the Iranian Mullahs, the Salafists, the Islamic State, Hamas....

If Muslims follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, then they are rightly guided. We will ALL stand before God to be judged including Muslims.

Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you.
Quran 49:13

I would rather men and women dress according to the principles of Islam rather than going about half naked, unlike western women who are abused, raped and in some cases do obscene things in front of other men and other obscenities including LGBT+ issues. People in the West have no boundaries and need to wake up and behave in a more decent way and avoid committing fornication\adultery in mass numbers. I think it may already be too late. Sigh.

Men and women compliment each other and will be given equal reward in the Hereafter.

Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.
Quran 16:97

Surely ˹for˺ Muslim men and women, believing men and women, devout men and women, truthful men and women, patient men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, men and women who guard their chastity, and men and women who remember Allah often—for ˹all of˺ them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
Qur'an 33:35