The Qur'an (2 Viewers)

Status
Not open for further replies.

AccessBlaster

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 12:05
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
5,751
For me the words Universe and God are interchangeable, they were both created from nothing, omnipresent, forever expanding.
 

The_Doc_Man

Immoderate Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 14:05
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
26,844
For me the words Universe and God are interchangeable, they were both created from nothing, omnipresent, forever expanding.

Not quite so interchangeable for me, since one of them is supposedly sentient but the other isn't.
 

Pat Hartman

Super Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 15:05
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Messages
42,733
If Muslims follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, then they are rightly guided.
Even when they ra** civilian women after abducting them or breaking into their homes? That's my kind of religion. No wonder your poor women have to hide themselves from you. They are in constant danger of being ra*** by animals. Maybe instead of dropping bombs on military targets, the Israelis should give you the eye for an eye treatment and treat you EXACTLY the way you treated them on Oct 7th.
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 12:05
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,687
"There's power - wonder working power - in the precious blood of the lamb" - that's JESUS CHRIST, he saves and God almight reigns supreme.
God loves you and wants you to receive His gift of salvation, love, and perfection.
 

The_Doc_Man

Immoderate Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 14:05
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
26,844
Considering how far religion stretches credulity, I suppose it could stretch a universe just a little bit.
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 12:05
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,687
Considering how far religion stretches credulity, I suppose it could stretch a universe just a little bit.

Dazed and bruised from our furious debates Doc, but darn it - we both still have our sense of humor, and don't take ourselves too seriously.

That, I suggest, makes us Rock stars!
 

aziz rasul

Active member
Local time
Today, 20:05
Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
1,935
The_Doc_Man, lets get something absolutely clear here. You initially ignored post #60 because you recognised the truth and you have been obfuscating and in denial ever since e.g. the creation of the universe which turned out to be damp squid.
God has created us with free will so you don't have to believe in the Qur'an and no one is forcing you to.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.
Qur’an 2:256

It's obvious that your home culture and mine were different. An expanse that can never be bridged. Hence the outcome of Paradise (for Muslims) and HELLFIRE (for disbelievers).

Fain would they extinguish Allaah's light with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
Qur’an 9:32

I get that a lot from Christians

Well their outcome is going to be the same as yours as they have invented a LIE against God..

So someone who contributed to the Qur'an came up with a philosophical description of fertilization and got it maybe a bit close.

Not close but 100% spot on on all 4 biological facts that were unknown at the time when the Qur'an was revealed and you have not proven otherwise. Grasping at straws. All the 4 biological points were all discovered by man many centuries after the Qur'an was written, that's the point which you seem to be DELIBERATELY IGNORING.

As far as Shariah is concerned, why do the west enact some aspects of it then if you so against it? For example, every society has laws against public indecency. For all of your bluster, even you must have some limits.
 

aziz rasul

Active member
Local time
Today, 20:05
Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
1,935
Mike Krailo, try reading from the Bible, in particular the words of the Muslim Jesus.

And this is eternal life, that they may know you (meaning the Father), the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allaah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."
Qur'an 19:36

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’
29 Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
Mark 12:28-30

Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.”’
Matthew 4:10

The above explicit verses are typical verses that Christians IGNORE. I wonder why!
 

aziz rasul

Active member
Local time
Today, 20:05
Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
1,935
If ye disclose (acts of) charity, even so it is well, but if ye conceal them, and make them reach those (really) in need, that is best for you: It will remove from you some of your (stains of) evil. And Allaah is well acquainted with what ye do.
Qur'an 2:271
 

Mike Krailo

Well-known member
Local time
Today, 15:05
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1,021
aziz, you are taking verses out of context on purpose to twist Gods word. Let's read it together in context, shall we. Below is directly from the NIV version. Other versions are very similar and you can verify for yourself.

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified​

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
That sounds like Jesus is the Son of God to me. I didn't add anything or take anything away. There are other translations of course but they all translate to the same Jesus is clearly the Son of God.

What you quoted has to do with the appearance of the risen Christ to Mary. That's the risen Christ from the dead, in case you missed it earlier on in the text. We're getting to meat of the entire bible as those that believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose again on the third day will be saved from the judgment of their sins. This is just about the moment Jesus appears to Mary, plain and simple. Don't read anything more into it lest you miss the entire point of God's plan for you

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene​

11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’
29 Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
Mark 12:28-30
We are in agreement here so not sure what the problem is. Yes there is God the Father. All Christians know that.

Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.”’
Matthew 4:10
He was preparing for his ministry. I don't ignore the fact that Jesus was nearing the end of his long fasting in woods and was being tempted by Satan. So what? Are you going to ignore all the verses where clearly he identified himself as the Son of God. The most famous is John 3:16, surely you understand that it is Jesus that is being talked about in that verse as being the Son of God.
 

The_Doc_Man

Immoderate Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 14:05
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
26,844
You initially ignored post #60 because you recognised the truth and you have been obfuscating and in denial ever since

As I said before, I ignored it because we went around that mulberry bush before in a different forum. I don't care to rehash old grounds, and your continued insistence that there is some miraculous association in that passage simply wastes my time.

The passages you quoted would have been based on knowledge of animal husbandry because animal breeding was known even in the time of Jesus. If you bother to look it up, animal husbandry started about 13,000 BC. So to get to the time of Jesus, they had 13 millennia to learn a few things and figure out that people breeding wasn't that different from animal breeding.

This will shock you, perhaps, but I find a LOT of truth in religious books. I just don't find any credence in the parts about divinity and miracles. But there are some useful philosophical principles. Your passages from your post #60 taken at face value are a primitive view of what really happens when a man loves a woman all the way. So what? It is of no interest to me except that you try to use it as proof of something, but I don't accept it as proving anything.
 

Lightwave

Ad astra
Local time
Today, 20:05
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
1,521
I would turn that around on you and say at some point we are going to have to accept that only an eternal creator God could possible create something such as the universe out of nothing.

Thank you Mike I will try and check out those books..

I would only say that as long as you realise that you are basing your reasoning on your feeling that the universe needs a creator.

A central concept of many religions ... the position that it cannot be any other way.
 

Mike Krailo

Well-known member
Local time
Today, 15:05
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1,021
I would only say that as long as you realise that you are basing your reasoning on your feeling that the universe needs a creator.
It's much more than that. I'm not one of those blind faith people anymore, although that might have been the case at first. I feel more like God has revealed himself to me progressively over time. It didn't happen overnight. This is an important point for realizing why God's plan is taking a long time to play out. He wants us all to come to him and he is very patient about it.

One of the crazy things that makes it difficult for some to see the light so to speak is that we are all inside a body with only five senses. Imagine if the limitations of your bodies senses were taken away and you were to discover that your actual soul had many more senses than just five? Do you think you would be able to see or experience reality differently than you do now? Unfortunately we all cannot easily just jump out of our bodies at will to see the light. It's quite scary to leave your body and the impulse to jump back in is very strong. There are those that claim they can do this for long periods of time. I know most scientologists have known this for a very long time and are constantly trying to achieve just that. That's the attraction to that cult. They get you to pop out of your body briefly and then completely depend on the cult to keep coming back for more of those experiences and meanwhile drain your bank account of all assets for their own purposes. It becomes an addicting quest to get out of your body without death. Don't fall for it though, they don't have your best interests in mind. I cannot prove it to you directly, I can only suggest that you look deeper into such an expanded consciousness outside our very limited physical bodies.

Assuming you eventually discover this truth directly or through experiences of others, it's a lot easier to get to the next level of understanding after having a glimpse at expanded consciousness. The faith part can be more blind in the beginning, but allows a vital connection to God to occur and the longer you keep the connection, the stronger your faith gets. There is a reality out there that is right in front of your nose, but you cannot see it with your eyes yet. You can see it with your heart only. After death, you see it with eyes so powerful they can see for miles and clearly see everything as it truly is. Hint, it's not what you see now only, but it's really an expanded version.

God's message is not to get wrapped up in all the minutia of biblical text, he want's us to know that the most important thing in this life is to love one another as your self. God especially is interested in those who are having a rough time, been beaten down, have endured great loss, and are clearly being looked down upon by others, and those that know they have sinned against him. Those people need his love way more than those of us that are comfortable in our lives and living like kings/queens in our own little world and not caring for others in favor of themselves.

So what does God do to love us, even though we have sinned against him or rejected him? He conquers death itself. He pays for all of our sins and iniquity by sacrificing his most loved and only begotten Son, Jesus. The debt was paid 2000 years ago on a cross. All sins are covered except for one. There is no forgiveness for rejecting his Son. None. So when you pass into a more permanent place in eternity it will be far, far away from the God of light and you will be on your own in darkness. Any light that was in you, will be taken away. But not before getting your life review from the one appointed ultimate judge over all of us. If you go it alone (without Christ), you know exactly what will happen next, don't you? Why would anyone reject such a loving gift of the ages? There is only one explanation, and its Pride. Plain and simple pride in one's self. That's the very thing that befell Satan and 1/3 of the angels in heaven. Pride is a killer of souls.
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 12:05
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,687
Mike Krailo, try reading from the Bible, in particular the words of the Muslim Jesus.

And this is eternal life, that they may know you (meaning the Father), the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allaah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."
Qur'an 19:36

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’
29 Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
Mark 12:28-30

Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.”’
Matthew 4:10

The above explicit verses are typical verses that Christians IGNORE. I wonder why!

Sounds like you cut and pasted from a Jehovah's Witness website, which tends to mention the same verses.

The answer to you is Yeah, Sure, there are a few verses where Jesus seems to imply that God is "his" God. So what about the other 100 verses that imply he IS God? Well, that's why we have the concept of a Trinity.
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 12:05
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,687
My brother just had a miraculous being-saved moment from icy roads the other day - I mean it takes MORE faith to believe in coincidences than it does God. I am a person of relatively little faith, but I can clearly see God working in my life constantly, to the degree that I willingly and obediently partner with Him to let Him.
 

aziz rasul

Active member
Local time
Today, 20:05
Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
1,935
On the basis of proving that Jesus believed in One God alone, in His Oneness, as did ALL the Prophets, the verses ARE IN CONTEXT. If your narrative is to twist it to something blasphemous, then that's up to you.

Let there be no compulsion in religion: TRUTH stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allaah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allaah heareth and knoweth all things.
Qur'an 2:256

In post #61, you were purposefully disingenuous and didn't give proper overall biblical context in order to deliberately deceive, as you seem to know the bible.

At the time of any of the Prophets, the Prophets were all at ONE with God just like Jesus as they were the emmisaries of God and carried out and fulfilled His commands.

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, AND I AM IN YOU.
John 14:20

20 “I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word,
21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me AND I AM IN YOU, MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 THE GLORY THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM, SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE ONE,
23 I IN THEM AND YOU IN ME, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
John 17:20-23

The message of Islam was taught by ALL the previous Prophets and Messengers, such as those mentioned in previous Scriptures (i.e. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus). However, it was finalised by God at the time of Muhammad the final messenger. Islam means “SUBMISSION to the will of God alone”; in other words, whatever God tells us to do, we OBEY Him and do it to the best of our ability. All who SUBMIT their will to God are Muslims and hence all the Prophets were MUSLIMS.

Here are some examples of SUBMISSION.

9 “Pray then in this way: OUR Father in heaven, hallowed be YOUR name.
10 YOUR kingdom come. YOUR WILL be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give US this day OUR daily bread.
12 And forgive us OUR debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not bring US to the time of trial, but rescue US from the evil one.
Matthew 6:9-13

And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, yet not what I want but what YOU want.”
Matthew 26:39

“Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me, yet not my will but YOURS be done.”
Luke 22:42

For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.
John 6:38

Jesus also followed in the footsteps of the previous Muslim Prophets e.g. Moses and was a servant of God and submitted to God and thus a Muslim.

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come to FULFIL.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU WILL NEVER ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
Matthew 5:17-20

That sounds like Jesus is a Muslim to me. I didn't add anything or take anything away. There are other translations of course but they all translate to the same Jesus is clearly a Muslim.
Islam disallows eating pork, drinking alcohol, boys are circumcised, etc. MUSLIM.
Oh and BTW, there are many sons of God in the bible as you well know. More deception. So what's your point. Jesus never claimed to be the 'begotten' son of God. In fact the word 'begotten' doesn't even appear in any of the 4 gospels in the Greek text. As there were a total of 79 gospels and the word 'begotten' doesn't appear in the 4 gospels, it stands to reason the word could not have appearred in the other 75 gospels and this is supposed to be one of the main pillars of the FALSE Christian or should I say Paulian belief.

Previous Prophets prayed like Muslims pray today i.e. by prostrating to the ground, taught by Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Abraham – Genesis 17:3
Moses – Exodus 34:8
Jesus - Matthew 26:39

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
Qur’an 2:133

Even Paul said that the Father was the only God.

Yet for us there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
1 Corinthians 8:6

In the New Testament, Lord is the most frequently used title for Jesus Christ, indicating his authority, power, and control as all Prophets and Messengers had.

We are in agreement here so not sure what the problem is. Yes there is God the Father.
The problem is that the Paulians claim that Jesus is also God. Who are you kidding? All Christians know that.
Are you going to ignore all the verses where clearly Jesus is a Prophet? Qur’an 4:171-2, Qur’an 5:75, Qur’an 61:6, Mark 6:4, John 6:14, John 7:40, John 9:17, Matthew 21:10-11 and Matthew 15:24.

only begotten Son, Jesus.
Hmmm, funny that Jesus never claims this in the bible. He also says he is the son of Man.

Sounds like you cut and pasted from a Jehovah's Witness website, which tends to mention the same verses.
Wrong. Actually mostly the NRSV bible.

So what about the other 100 verses that imply he IS God? Well, that's why we have the concept of a Trinity.
ou would have a contradiction then and you haven't provided any verses anyway. There is NO TRINITY in the earliest versions of the bible and there is certainly no mention of it even in the old testament. No where does Jesus himself says there is a triunne God. This was invented in the 4th century.

The_Doc_Man, there was no knowledge at the molecular level. Your desperation at denying the truth is funny to watch.

Pat Hartman
6. Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
7. Allaah has set a SEAL upon their HEARTS and upon their HEARING, and over their vision is a VEIL. And for them is a GREAT PUNISHMENT.
8. And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allaah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.
9. They [think to] deceive Allaah and those who believe, but they deceive not except THEMSELVES and perceive [it] not.
10. In their hearts is DISEASE, so Allaah has INCREASED their DISEASE; and for them is a PAINFUL PUNISHMENT because they [habitually] used to LIE.
11. And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."
12. Unquestionably, it is they who are the CORRUPTERS, but they perceive [it] not.
13. And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is THEY who are the FOOLISH, but they know [it] not.
14. And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their EVIL ONES, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers."
15. [But] Allaah MOCKS THEM and prolongs them in their transgression [while] they WANDER BLINDLY.
16. Those are the ones who have purchased ERROR [in exchange] for guidance, so their transaction has brought no profit, nor were they guided.
17. Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allaah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see.
18. DEAF, DUMB and BLIND- so they will not return [to the right path].
19. Or [it is] like a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder and lightning. They put their fingers in their ears against the thunderclaps in dread of death. But Allaah is encompassing of the disbelievers.
20. The lightning almost snatches away their sight. Every time it lights [the way] for them, they walk therein; but when darkness comes over them, they stand [still]. And if Allaah had willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Indeed, Allaah is over all things competent.
21. O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous -
22. [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allaah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23. And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a Surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allaah, if you should be TRUTHFUL.

Qur'an 2:6-23

And if you could but see when the angels take the souls of those who disbelieved... They are striking their faces and their backs and [saying], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire.
Qur'an 8:50

And whoever has not believed in Allaah and His Messenger - then indeed, We have prepared for the disbelievers a Blaze.
Qur'an 48:13
 

aziz rasul

Active member
Local time
Today, 20:05
Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
1,935
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion or utter anything concerning Allaah but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allaah, His Word that He sent to Mary, and a Spirit (Gabriel) from Him [that He sent]. So believe in Allaah and His messengers, and do not say “Three.” Desist, it is better for you! Allaah is one God. Far exalted is He above having offspring. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Allaah is sufficient a disposer of affairs.
172. The Messiah would never scorn to be a servant to Allaah, nor would the angels who are nearest to Allaah. As for those who scorn His service and are arrogantly proud, He shall gather them all to Himself to answer.

Qur'an 4.171-2

They have indeed disbelieved those who say: “Allaah is the Messiah son of Mary.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Who then can do anything against Allaah if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” Allaah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. Allah is able to do all things.
Qur'an 5.17

Surely they disbelieve those who say: “Allaah is the Messiah son of Mary.” The Messiah himself said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever joins other gods with Allah, for him Allaah has forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. The evildoers shall have no helpers.”
Qur'an 5.72

The Messiah son of Mary was no other than a messenger before whom [similar] messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman. They used to eat food [like other human beings]. See how We make the revelations clear to them, and see how they are deluded!
Qur'an 5.75

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Ezekiel 18:20
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom