The Qur'an (2 Viewers)

[Uncle Gizmo]

This means for women you can ra** her legitimately under your religion, and for a man you can force them into labor, in other words slavery...

I knew I was right! The Muslim religion sees other people as inferior, if less value, and can abuse them with the blessing of their religious leaders.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1733826966627701246

 

[The_Doc_Man]

It is the kind of hatred (and disdain) for non-Muslims expressed by the sheikh in Uncle G's post that makes me think of Islam as a hateful religion. As is typical of such situations, they find all sorts of (in my opinion, fabricated) justifications for their hateful actions rather than face up to the fact that they now have yet ANOTHER woman to degrade and vilify, which is what they wanted to do anyway.

Before you try to counter this by bringing up the treatment of the Amalekites, remember that I am now atheist. I think that ANY religion that allows degradation and other kinds of hateful treatment to a former citizen of a defeated nation is a religion that needs to clean itself up. Since Christians accept the Old Testament where that kind of treatment was condoned, I'm not overly happy with them either.

Therefore, Aziz, please understand that I have no particular soft spot in my heart for Christianity or Judaism either. I have not laid off from my opinions of Christianity. I am not picking on Islam in this thread because I like other religions better. I'm picking on Islam because of the original thread title. You opened the thread. I'm just replying on the starting topic.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The attack by the Amalekites on the Jews during their escape from Egypt started the feud.

Pat, I was actually heading off a possible response from Aziz by showing that I was aware of what happened back then, and that regardless of the provocation, the treatment of women and children in EITHER case was reprehensible.

 

[aziz rasul]

Mike Krailo

you are aware that the disciples asked Jesus what the greatest law was?

Yes that was the following: -

29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord OUR God, the Lord is ONE;
30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
Mark 12:28-30

And Jesus was sent to lost sheep of Israel.

1. Say (O Muhammad): He is Allaah, the ONE and ONLY;
2. Allaah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
Qur'an 112:1-4

This is not a game of who is the most knowledgeable about the Qur'an or Bible or how religious you are.

I never said it was. It's about establishing what is true and what is FALSE.

"Truth has (now) arrived, and FALSEHOOD perished: for FALSEHOOD is (by its nature) bound to perish."
Qur'an 17:81

Say (O Muhammad), "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray
[in violation] against it. And I am not over you a manager."
Qur'an 10:108

Yes, the path is CLEAR. Don't over complicate it. It's not that complicated.

I don't see a current Palestinian annihilation, do you? I am not there, are you?

I and many people around the world and most of the UN members do. And we don't have be there, we see it on the news. I wasn't present when the Jews were annihilated during WWII, but we don't doubt what happened then. Such a weak and disengenuous argument.

Propaganda on what is going on is all over the place.

Ah, so Hamas didn't kill anyone. It was all propaganda. After all, we weren't there.

Do you support Hamas going into Israel to attack the innocent?

Do you support Israel and the IDF going into Palestine to attack the innocent?

What does the Qur'an say about people that attack your nation?

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Qur'an 5:32

 

[aziz rasul]

Pat Hartman
Pure HATE towards the Palestinians. It is people like you who look away from the sufferring of one set of people that lets people like the IDF continue with there annihilation\ethnic cleansing\genocide\atrocities. This has been going on for 75 years and no doubt will continue as the UN is undemocratic.

And whoever Allaah guides - he is the [rightly] guided; and whoever He sends astray - you will never find for them protectors besides Him, and We will gather them on the Day of Resurrection [fallen] on their faces - BLIND, DUMB and DEAF. Their refuge is HELL; every time it subsides We increase them in BLAZING FIRE.
Qur'an 17:97

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him DISBELIEVE." Indeed, We have prepared for the WRONGDOERS a FIRE whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which SCALDS [their] faces. WRETCHED is the drink, and EVIL is the resting place.
Qur'an 18:29

31. We have appointed only STERN angels as wardens of the FIRE. And We have made their number only as a test for the DISBELIEVERS, so that the People of the Book will be CERTAIN, and the believers will increase in faith, and neither the People of the Book nor the believers will have any doubts, and so that those hypocrites with sickness in their hearts and the DISBELIEVERS will argue, “What does Allaah mean by such a number?” In this way Allaah leaves whoever He wills to stray and guides whoever He wills. And none knows the forces of your Lord except He. And this description of Hell is only a reminder to humanity.
35. Surely HELL is one of the mightiest catastrophes—
36. a warning to humankind,
Qur'an 74:35-36

Whereas, the Qur'an orders followers of Mohamed to convert...

THERE SHALL BE NO COMPULSION IN [ACCEPTANCE OF] THE RELIGION. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allaah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it.
And Allaah is Hearing and Knowing.
Qur’an 2:256

 

[aziz rasul]

The_Doc_Man

before the birth of Islam

Islam began at the time of Adam (peace be upon him) so I don't know what you are talking about.

285. The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allaah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
286. Allaah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
Qur'an 2:285-6

But there is another factor here...

God sent SCRIPTURE to some Messengers.

Ibrahim (Abraham) - Souhouf (the Scrolls) in Hebrew
Musa (Moses) - Taurat (the Torah or the Law) & the Ten Commandments both in Hebrew
Dawud (David) - Zabur (the Psalms) in Hebrew
Isa (Jesus – son of Mary) - Injil, in Aramaic
Muhammad (the Seal of the Prophets) - Qur’an, in Arabic

Only the Qur'an and the 10 Commandments have survived in their original form. The 4 out of the original 79 gospels in the NT were written by man.

The Taurat has been corrupted over the ages and hence we do not have the original pristine original. Hence those, among the rabbis, who indeed changed the words of Allaah are major sinners.

Even the man made New Testamant has elements of truth in them where Jesus (peace be upon him) declares explicitly that there is only ONE God and has no partners.

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
Qur'an al Kafirun 109:1-6

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allaah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allaah, then indeed, Allaah is swift in [taking] account.
Qur'an 3:19

Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not read or write and he did not produce the Qur'an. All true Scripture comes from God via angel Gabriel and then to the Messengers and then written by the scribes, so him committing a sin in regards to scripture makes no sense.

 

[aziz rasul]

Allaah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allaah turn in mercy: For Allaah is full of knowledge and wisdom. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Qur'an 4:17

Allaah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allaah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
Qur'an 4:48

If ye reject (Allaah), truly Allaah hath no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your Return, when He will tell you the truth of all that ye did (in this life). For He knoweth well all that is in (men's) hearts.
Qur'an 39:7

“Indeed, those who recite the Book of Allaah and establish prayer and spend out of what We have provided them, secretly and publicly, (can) expect a profit that will never perish. That He may give them in full their rewards and increase for them of His bounty. Indeed, He is Forgiving and Appreciative.”
Qur'an 35:29.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I don't know what you are talking about.

Obviously, neither do you. It would appear that you rely on miracles that have stopped happening a long time ago - if they every really happened at all. But you can't prove them and that god of yours has stepped away for a while. If EVER the Muslims needed a miracle, it is now. So... in the old works, God sent down pillars of fire, parted oceans, and saved people from wild beasts. Where is Allah now?

If you want to call an hallucination a miracle, go right ahead. But it all sounds like repetitious noise to me. There is a primary principle in brainwashing that if you repeat something often enough, your victim (I mean student?) will start to believe, even if only in hopes that you will eventually shut up with the mantras and propaganda. Pardon me if I take myself out of that brainwashing cycle and take a rinse cycle to get the grit out of my ears.

 

[aziz rasul]

Obviously, neither do you.

I do indeed, it's you who are blind.

Say, ?O Prophet,? “I do not say to you that I possess Allaah’s treasuries or know the unseen, nor do I claim to be an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.” Say, “Are those blind ?to the truth? equal to those who can see? Will you not then reflect?”
Qur'an 6:50

It would appear that you rely on miracles that have stopped happening a long time ago ...

We do have a miracle today, but you have decided to deny it. Nothing anyone can do about that. You have the free will given to you by God, so do as you please. It all sounds like repetitious noise to me.

There is a primary principle in brainwashing that if you repeat something often enough, your victim (I mean student?) will start to believe, even if only in hopes that you will eventually shut up with the mantras and propaganda. Pardon me if I take myself out of that brainwashing cycle and take a rinse cycle to get the grit out of my ears.

57. This - so let them taste it - is SCALDING water and [FOUL] PURULENCE.
58. And other [PUNISHMENTS] of its type [in various] kinds.
Qur'an 38:57-58

71. And those who DISBELIEVED will be driven to HELL in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of PUNISHMENT has come into effect upon the DISBELIEVERS.
72. [To them] it will be said, "Enter the gates of HELL to abide ETERNALLY therein, and WRETCHED is the residence of the ARROGANT."
Qur'an 39:71-72

46. The FIRE, they are exposed to it morning and evening. And the Day the Hour appears [it will be said], "Make the people of Pharaoh enter the severest punishment."
49. And those in the FIRE will say to the keepers of HELL, "Supplicate your Lord to lighten for us a day from the PUNISHMENT."
50. They will say, "Did there not come to you your messengers with clear proofs?" They will say, "Yes." They will reply, "Then supplicate [yourselves], but the supplication of the DISBELIEVERS is not except in error."
70. Those who DENY the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers - they are going to know,
71. When the SHACKLES are around their NECKS and the chains; they will be dragged
72. In BOILING water; then in the FIRE they will be filled [with FLAME].
Qur'an 40:46, 49-50, 70-72

 

[Isaac]

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors

So why did the Palestinian people knowingly vote for a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them in 2006, while saying out of the other sides of their mouths that they are 'innocent'. Does that make them guilty for everything that has happened recently?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Aziz, as is your right to choose, you follow Islam. I actually have zero point zero percent doubt that by your standards, you are a good and devout Muslim.

The problem as I see it is that you have drunk the poisoned grape Kool-Aid for so long that you cannot taste its bitterness. Modern society suggests that ALL people are equal regardless of religion, national origin, gender, or gender preference. Some people have more trouble than others in accepting that we are all HUMAN first and then pick your points of diversion second.

Islam does not appear to accept this more enlightened and more modern viewpoint. Though I am an atheist, I try to show no ill will to others who have not chosen as I did. But that choice does not include that I have to agree with these other choices. In that vein, I must simply say, "Have a good day and let us learn to live with our apparently intractable differences." I feel that in 180+ posts there is no progress. I see no point in trying to convince you. However, may I respectfully offer you a suggestion?

YouTube has a content provider named Sam Shamoun who is FAR more literate in the Qur'an than I am. His commentary - complete with specific chapter and verse references - provides insights that I cannot provide, since I did not grow up in an Islamic environment. Mr. Shamoun seems quite scholarly and might enlighten you as to more intimate criticisms of Islamic views. Search for "Sam Shamoun" and listen to a couple of his postings.

 

[Isaac]

Oooh - let me pile on here - may I suggest one too? Usama Dakdok, who broadcasts on VCY America. He was a devout Muslim and a well educated one, who is now no longer Muslim. He converted to Christianity at age 11, but went on to study and holds a degree in Islamic Law from a university.

He tells many truths about Islam that do not make it to the modern west. I've listened to several of his broadcasts and he quotes from the Koran quite a bit

 

[conception_native_0123]

Where is Allah now?

watch what ya say there richard! that's just like saying "where is jesus now?", ya know. =)

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Adam, that's the same as asking where is Zeus now? Or where is Ahura-Mazda now? Or where is Odin now? (Actually, according to Marvel, he was last seen in one of the Scandinavian countries.)

 

[Isaac]

Zeus is probably pooping in the backyard. He's my neighbor's dog!

 

[conception_native_0123]

Odin?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Odin?

Obviously, Adam, you aren't up on other mythological pantheons. Odin (also sometimes written as Wotan and Woden) is the All-Father of Norse legend, the father of Thor and Baldur, husband of Frigga (also written as Freyya). Odin One-eye is often depicted as a majestic and richly-robed bearded man with staff in one hand, a raven on one shoulder, and a patch over one eye. He sacrificed the other eye to a magic raven in order to gain perfect sight (god-level sight) in the other eye. But then again, don't ALL religions depict their "leader of the gods" as majestic and ornately dressed for the period in which those legends were created?

We get our name for the middle day of the week, Wednesday, from a corrupted spelling of "Woden's Day" and get Friday from "Friyya's Day." Then, Thor is in the middle of those two for "Thor's Day." Look up "origin of day names" to see the other sources.

 

[conception_native_0123]

I didn't know any of that richard. thank you for educating me. although I don't know if I'll ever use it!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

My wife uses that sort of information all the time... when she's doing crossword puzzles. Ya never know when you'll need that information.

 

[CJ_London]

although I don't know if I'll ever use it!

Might help you understand the marvel universe