The Qur'an

[The_Doc_Man]

People in the West have no boundaries and need to wake up and behave in a more decent way

Oh... I see. Like the more decent way that Hamas did so recently. Or like so many nations under Islam that are centers of relative poverty because they follow Islamic law regarding businesses and inheritances, thus not allowing them any traction to grow.

All of that scripture quoting is wasted if we don't accept the premise of Allah's existence - which I don't. ALL of those fancy words could just as well have been written by a drug-using, hallucinating lecherous desert warlord who liked little girls. This long after those words were written, we have no modern way to know who actually wrote them. Which means that IF Allah is real, He has abandoned us, given up on the idea of showing us miracles or His divine presence. If you consider the words of other religious prophets, like Jim Jones (of Guyana fame) or David Koresh (of Waco fame) or Joseph Smith (of Latter Day Saints fame) or L. Ron Hubbard (of Scientology fame), were THEY inspired by some divinity? How would we tell the difference between ancient dream states and modern ones? This is a very serious question. WHY should we give more credence to Muhammad than anyone else?

You grew up in a culture that reveres Muhammad but we did not. To us, he's not so special. So why should we care?

 

[aziz rasul]

Why not IDF, Zionists, fundamental Christian Evangelists, etc.

It may be wasted on you, but not on me. Allaah is on the side of the Muslims and your views of growth are completely different to that of Muslims. We grow here and insha-allaah in the Hereafter whilst those who deny Allaah and the Prophets will end up in HELLFIRE. Good luck with that.

You have no idea what culture I was brought up on, so don't presume please. I discovered the truth about Islam when I was 20 without any external influence from anyone.

As far as the Qur'an, you are ignoring verses and in denial so how can you judge. I challenged you on the verses in post 60 which you ignored so how are you in a position to judge any scripture!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

As far as the Qur'an, you are ignoring verses and in denial so how can you judge.

Lets get something absolutely clear here. I am ignoring the verses because I do not accept the validity of their source. If I don't believe the source to be valid, then OF COURSE the verses get ignored. By way of example, if I quoted from the Harry Potter novels, you would ignore the quotes because YOU believe them to be fiction. But it's not acceptable for me to believe that YOUR quotes are from fictional sources?

You have no idea what culture I was brought up on, so don't presume please.

I don't need the specifics. I know, because of your beliefs and their specific directions, that your home culture and mine were different. That is really all I needed to know.

those who deny Allaah and the Prophets will end up in HELLFIRE. Good luck with that.

I get that a lot from Christians, too. Don't believe them either.

You hold up that description of fertilization, but don't forget that Greeks had some pretty astute philosophers long before the Qur'an was written and they philosophically described indivisibility through pure logic. (The word "indivisible" in Greek is "atomos".)

So someone who contributed to the Qur'an came up with a philosophical description of fertilization and got it maybe a bit close. So what? Am I supposed to be impressed with the ingenuity of some unknown contributor? Oh, I know... you will claim that it was DIVINELY inspired. Can I then say that August Kekule was divinely inspired when he recognized the shape of the benzene molecule? Can I say that Louis Pasteur was divinely inspired when he discovered polarization of light by tartaric acid crystals?

You keep coming up with items that remind me of Shania Twain's song "That Don't Impress Me Much." Oh, to be clear, her name is Shania, not Sharia.

 

[Lightwave]

I think at some point we are going to have to accept that something can arise from nothing.

Are there individual or multiple conscious entities in the universe that create and protect.?
Yes us
... but it looks like for a long time we weren't particularly creative or imaginative and hardly conscious.

Do we as conscious entities create things and do we try to protect things? Yes we do.

Are we gods or are we creators ?- We share some characteristics of gods we certainly create and through our offspring we can achieve some form of immortality and yet individually we are in no way infinite or magical.

What came before us?- Well poorer and less intelligent versions of us actually and what comes after us appears to be better and more creative versions of us - I assume you accept that generally our and your children are better versions of ourselves. Quite often our children are taller and quicker and live longer. Walking around Edinburgh I constantly see door frames that are often 1 foot shorter than modern frames.

It would appear that the universe is infinitely stranger than we can imagine but we will keep imagining and keep progressing. But something can come from nothing and the existential proof is everywhere.

It looks like soon we will have thinking computers who will be like gods to us in terms of their power and imagination.
But they will have come after us and not before.

 

[ebs17]

But something can come from nothing

... and everything can disappear into nothingness = black hole.

Maybe we just lack the definition of nothing, with some understanding it's just the other side that we don't see yet.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I think at some point we are going to have to accept that something can arise from nothing.

I would turn that around on you and say at some point we are going to have to accept that only an eternal creator God could possible create something such as the universe out of nothing.

What came before us?- Well poorer and less intelligent versions of us actually and what comes after us appears to be better and more creative versions of us - I assume you accept that generally our and your children are better versions of ourselves. Quite often our children are taller and quicker and live longer. Walking around Edinburgh I constantly see door frames that are often 1 foot shorter than modern frames.

More intelligent? Civilizations come and go along with all their technologies. Just what did all those chambers in the pyramids actually do? How were ancient civilizations like the Mayans able to obtain such great knowledge of the stars? I don't assume less intelligence came before since intelligence is not purely physically manifested. While I'm sure an operating cell phone in the ancient past would have certainly impressed the ancients, they might have shown you something equally or far more impressive. Advances in medical helps the physical body to an extent but does nothing to address the spiritual soul (non-physical) of our being which is directly related to our own self awareness (consciousness). I would say on a whole, that part of us has gotten worse over time. I still think cell phones and computers in general are sucking the life out of people at an alarming rate. Everyone is so obsessed with them (including me). I have to force myself away from it before I can recover spiritually.

If you want a good book to read to get away from all the nonsense for moment, try reading "Imagine Heaven" or the new book "Imagine the God of heaven". Both written by John Burke. There is definitely something in there that is sure to raise your eye brow. Good luck putting the books down after you start reading.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Something certain DOES arise from nothing when dealing with concepts such as "spontaneous pair production." And IDEAS certainly arise from nothing much, given circumstances that lead to thought... such as the (probably apocryphal) store of Newton's falling apple.

 

[AccessBlaster]

For me the words Universe and God are interchangeable, they were both created from nothing, omnipresent, forever expanding.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

For me the words Universe and God are interchangeable, they were both created from nothing, omnipresent, forever expanding.

Not quite so interchangeable for me, since one of them is supposedly sentient but the other isn't.

 

[Isaac]

"There's power - wonder working power - in the precious blood of the lamb" - that's JESUS CHRIST, he saves and God almight reigns supreme.
God loves you and wants you to receive His gift of salvation, love, and perfection.

 

[conception_native_0123]

forever expanding

GOD is forever expanding? He must have incredible elasticity then!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Considering how far religion stretches credulity, I suppose it could stretch a universe just a little bit.

 

[Isaac]

Considering how far religion stretches credulity, I suppose it could stretch a universe just a little bit.

Dazed and bruised from our furious debates Doc, but darn it - we both still have our sense of humor, and don't take ourselves too seriously.

That, I suggest, makes us Rock stars!

 

[AccessBlaster]

GOD is forever expanding? He must have incredible elasticity then!

After he created you his work was finished and he went into retirement.

 

[aziz rasul]

The_Doc_Man, lets get something absolutely clear here. You initially ignored post #60 because you recognised the truth and you have been obfuscating and in denial ever since e.g. the creation of the universe which turned out to be damp squid.
God has created us with free will so you don't have to believe in the Qur'an and no one is forcing you to.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.
Qur’an 2:256

It's obvious that your home culture and mine were different. An expanse that can never be bridged. Hence the outcome of Paradise (for Muslims) and HELLFIRE (for disbelievers).

Fain would they extinguish Allaah's light with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
Qur’an 9:32

I get that a lot from Christians

Well their outcome is going to be the same as yours as they have invented a LIE against God..

So someone who contributed to the Qur'an came up with a philosophical description of fertilization and got it maybe a bit close.

Not close but 100% spot on on all 4 biological facts that were unknown at the time when the Qur'an was revealed and you have not proven otherwise. Grasping at straws. All the 4 biological points were all discovered by man many centuries after the Qur'an was written, that's the point which you seem to be DELIBERATELY IGNORING.

As far as Shariah is concerned, why do the west enact some aspects of it then if you so against it? For example, every society has laws against public indecency. For all of your bluster, even you must have some limits.

 

[aziz rasul]

Mike Krailo, try reading from the Bible, in particular the words of the Muslim Jesus.

And this is eternal life, that they may know you (meaning the Father), the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allaah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."
Qur'an 19:36

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’
29 Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
Mark 12:28-30

Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.”’
Matthew 4:10

The above explicit verses are typical verses that Christians IGNORE. I wonder why!

 

[aziz rasul]

If ye disclose (acts of) charity, even so it is well, but if ye conceal them, and make them reach those (really) in need, that is best for you: It will remove from you some of your (stains of) evil. And Allaah is well acquainted with what ye do.
Qur'an 2:271

 

[Mike Krailo]

aziz, you are taking verses out of context on purpose to twist Gods word. Let's read it together in context, shall we. Below is directly from the NIV version. Other versions are very similar and you can verify for yourself.

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified​

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

That sounds like Jesus is the Son of God to me. I didn't add anything or take anything away. There are other translations of course but they all translate to the same Jesus is clearly the Son of God.

What you quoted has to do with the appearance of the risen Christ to Mary. That's the risen Christ from the dead, in case you missed it earlier on in the text. We're getting to meat of the entire bible as those that believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose again on the third day will be saved from the judgment of their sins. This is just about the moment Jesus appears to Mary, plain and simple. Don't read anything more into it lest you miss the entire point of God's plan for you

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene​

11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’
29 Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;
30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
Mark 12:28-30

We are in agreement here so not sure what the problem is. Yes there is God the Father. All Christians know that.

Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.”’
Matthew 4:10

He was preparing for his ministry. I don't ignore the fact that Jesus was nearing the end of his long fasting in woods and was being tempted by Satan. So what? Are you going to ignore all the verses where clearly he identified himself as the Son of God. The most famous is John 3:16, surely you understand that it is Jesus that is being talked about in that verse as being the Son of God.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

You initially ignored post #60 because you recognised the truth and you have been obfuscating and in denial ever since

As I said before, I ignored it because we went around that mulberry bush before in a different forum. I don't care to rehash old grounds, and your continued insistence that there is some miraculous association in that passage simply wastes my time.

The passages you quoted would have been based on knowledge of animal husbandry because animal breeding was known even in the time of Jesus. If you bother to look it up, animal husbandry started about 13,000 BC. So to get to the time of Jesus, they had 13 millennia to learn a few things and figure out that people breeding wasn't that different from animal breeding.

This will shock you, perhaps, but I find a LOT of truth in religious books. I just don't find any credence in the parts about divinity and miracles. But there are some useful philosophical principles. Your passages from your post #60 taken at face value are a primitive view of what really happens when a man loves a woman all the way. So what? It is of no interest to me except that you try to use it as proof of something, but I don't accept it as proving anything.

 

[Lightwave]

I would turn that around on you and say at some point we are going to have to accept that only an eternal creator God could possible create something such as the universe out of nothing.

Thank you Mike I will try and check out those books..

I would only say that as long as you realise that you are basing your reasoning on your feeling that the universe needs a creator.

A central concept of many religions ... the position that it cannot be any other way.