The Qur'an

I'm not sure what-all Lot did or didn't do, as I wasn't there, but a pedophile is someone who wants to sexually engage pre-pubescent children.
Not just your run of the mill high school coach having sex with a 17 yr old, for example.
This is why all of the people who call Epstein a pedophile it isn't quite accurate.

Whether we agree with it now or not, the reality is that for the vast majority - like 99.9% of human history, it seems to have been accepted and normal for grown men to sometimes marry (etc) girls 15 and up. This wasn't considered (and isn't) pedophilia, although if you're going to say it's not right, I'll not disagree with you, for a personal opinion
 
So you actually believe a man built a ship and kept two of every animal on it for forty days while the whole planet was covered with water that came from nowhere then somehow mysteriously drained away.

And you expect to be considered an intelligent person? Just bizarre. Amazing what can be done through childhood indoctrination into a cult belief.
Actually there are a lot of pieces of evidence that the Flood as told in the bible actually happened.
Watched a great Andrew Wommack piece once on a guy who keeps a whole museum filled with the stuff - has mostly to do with geology and earth/rock layers, but the funny part was when they found a fossil in a layer of rock that was "impossible" according to evolution.

Galaxiom do you then consider 2/3 of the world's inhabitants to be stupid? I mean I respect your belief, but it does seem to me to be odd if you actually go so far as to pretend you're not in the minority.

I can't imagine what life would be like if I woke up each day convinced that 70% of the people on earth were extremely stupid, or deluded -
 
And you expect to be considered an intelligent person?
The funny thing is, most scientists up until a very short time ago believed in God themselves!

It is only a matter of recent trends (relatively speaking, recent) not to, and further, to somehow pin that on "because Science".

Scientists have been Christians for hundreds of years, less so recently.
 
So you actually believe a man built a ship and kept two of every animal on it for forty days while the whole planet was covered with water that came from nowhere then somehow mysteriously drained away.

And you expect to be considered an intelligent person? Just bizarre. Amazing what can be done through childhood indoctrination into a cult belief.

Really? So if I showed you a list of all the famous, widely respected scientists who believed in God, you'd claim you feel every one of them is actually stupid? Just curious
 
Actually there are a lot of pieces of evidence that the Flood as told in the bible actually happened.
You chose to believe that rubbish because it suits your prejudices. Common sense tells us that it is impossible to flood the whole planet. There are dozens of anomalies in the story.

Were there kangaroos, koalas and wombats on the Ark? How did they get all the way from Australia to the middle east?

So nobody else had any boats?

The number of people on board could not have managed the dung from all the animals let alone feeding them.

Belief in this kind of nonsense is a definite mark of stupidity regardless of how many others share those beliefs. People can hold stupid beliefs yet be competent in other areas.
 
So you actually believe a man built a ship and kept two of every animal on it for forty days while the whole planet was covered with water that came from nowhere then somehow mysteriously drained away.

And you expect to be considered an intelligent person? Just bizarre. Amazing what can be done through childhood indoctrination into a cult belief.
It's a very important event that happened in the past that is absolutely true. The event marks the point when God said enough was enough and his judgement came to pass. There was a great deal of wickedness back in that day and no one but Noah and his family were close to God or believed in God. The interesting thing to me is how different the Earth was prior to the world wide flood. Namely the fact that there was no rain. There was a mist that watered the vegetation. There also was way more plant life back then (huge amounts). The crust of the earth was much different that it is today. There was much more dry land than there is today.

The way the flood occurred happened in such a way that no one living during that time could ever imagine such an event like that taking place. Hence, they all laughed at Noah and made fun of him for building this large ship. Kind of like people today who do not believe miracles don't or cannot happen because, they never have observed them to happen in the past. You scoff at the idea in believing in God just like they did in the days of Noah, they instead made idols to false Gods or just ignored God's message through Noah. Now I don't know when the second judgement of God will happen exactly, but when the day comes, the believers in Christ will be sealed with God. The non believers will be judged with fire. Very similar to what happened during Noah's day except instead of water, it will be fire. After God sealed up Noah's ark, nothing happened for almost a week, and then it started to do something the world has never seen before, it began to rain. In addition to the non stop rain, the earth opened up and large amounts of water came from underground as well. I find this part very interesting. If there really was large amounts of water under the surface of the Earth, then it makes sense how the mist was created without rain prior to this day. It also makes sense that much of the crust that used to be on the surface is now at the bottom of the sea. So it's a very different place today and the change happened very dramatically in a relatively short period of time. There is geological evidence of this all over the world.

Never forget the flood. Never doubt for a second there will be another judgement that will come to pass and the world will be divided into just two groups, those that believe his new covenant and those who don't and continue to think that have everything under control. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the end of days. There was those who were given a chance to get onto the ark and sealed in, and those that didn't go in and sided with the crowd.

So nobody else had any boats?
No one else survived the event except for those who were sealed inside the ark.
The number of people on board could not have managed the dung from all the animals let alone feeding them.
Yes, they could.
Belief in this kind of nonsense is a definite mark of stupidity regardless of how many others share those beliefs. People can hold stupid beliefs yet be competent in other areas.
It only seems like nonsense while we are all in his grace and the judgement hasn't come yet. The grace period doesn't last forever though. He is very patient, but it does eventually end with judgment. It's simply God's own words and once you come to know him, you realize he is not messing around. I know you like to think it is man's word for convenience sake, but no man could ever say such a thing or do what he does. Man is sinful by nature, it has been this way since the great fall. If you believe you are without sin, you lie to yourself. God, on the other hand, has revealed himself throughout the history of the world to his chosen people first, and eventually to the rest of the world. We are now in the information age. Word travels fast to even remote places. We are fast approaching times of trial and tribulation. This was all foretold already so it should not come as a surprise.

The one I like to remind people of is the mark of the beast. You know, the one that will have to be accepted on your hand or forehead to be able to buy or sell anything. So man just made that up thousands of years ago? When this indeed happens, you will know this is his word. But if you accept the mark, you have no hope of being saved after that. That's your last chance to get on board the ark of the new covenant and be saved from his wrath.

There is a lot of speculation on what the mark will actually be, but whatever it is, it's better not to eat than to accept that mark. Don't do it.
 
[the Biblical flood is] a very important event that happened in the past that is absolutely true.
And you believe this because some ancient ignorant misogynists passed the story down orally until someone wrote it down.

The crust of the earth was much different that it is today. There was much more dry land than there is today.
There is zero geological evidence that the crust was different back then. The geological history over billions of years has been determined and it does not match with your delusional assertion at all.

the Earth was prior to the world wide flood. Namely the fact that there was no rain.
What an idiotic claim.

God, on the other hand, has revealed himself throughout the history of the world to his chosen people first, and eventually to the rest of the world.

You use past tense in this statement implying that god has already revealed himself to the rest of the world. Funny that nobody noticed then.

Have you ever considered the the "The Chosen Race" and "The Promised Land" are remarkably similar concepts to "The Master Race" and "The Father Land"? The similarities don't stop there. Both the Hebrews and the Germans perpetrated mass genocides.
 
God can use any human being now or in the past ...

Yes, they were called Prophets and some of these were also at a higher rank and called Messengers e.g., Ibrahim, Ismail, Musa, Dawood, Isa and Muhammad (peace be upon them).

And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him (MUHAMMAD) that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me."
Qur'an 21:25

84. We gave him (ABRAHAM) ISAAC and JACOB: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided NOAH, and among his progeny, DAVID, SOLOMON, JOB, JOSEPH, MOSES, and AARON: thus do We reward those who do good:
85. And ZAKARIYA and JOHN, and JESUS and ELIAS: all in the ranks of the righteous:
86. And ISMA'IL and ELISHA, and JONAS, and LOT: and to all We gave favour above the nations:
87. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.
88. This is the guidance of Allaah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them.

Qur'an 6:84-88

And no mere prophet has the ability to forgive sins.

We all have the power to forgive, not just all the Prophets and God Himself.

Allaah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allaah turn in mercy: For Allaah is full of knowledge and wisdom. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Qur'an 4:17

If ye reject (Allaah), truly Allaah hath no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your Return, when He will tell you the truth of all that ye did (in this life). For He knoweth well all that is in (men's) hearts.
Qur'an 39:7

“But if you pardon and overlook and forgive - then indeed, Allaah is Forgiving and Merciful”
Qur'an 64:14

No prophet other than Jesus was called the Son of God ...

See Matthew 5:9, Luke 3:38, Exodus 4:22, 2 Samuel 7:13-14, Jeremiah 31:9, Psalms 2:7, John 1:12 Romans 8:14, etc. etc.
Also he didn't declare himself to be a "begotten" son of God. In fact the word "begotten" doesn't even appear in the 4 out of the original 79 Gospels that were added to the Bible.

The heavenly sacrifice isn't good enough for you ...

157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allaah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no
knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
158. But Allaah took him up unto Himself. Allaah was ever Mighty, Wise.

Qur'an 4:157-158

Mark 16:19 are NOT the words of Jesus but the words that were not given by God.

Walking in the light

[This is] a Book which We have revealed to you [O Prophet] so that you may lead people out of darkness and into light, by the Will of their Lord, to the Path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy—
Qur’an – Surah Ibrahim 14:1

Given the way that Muslims treat Christians...

Given the way that Christians treat Muslims.

So you actually believe a man built a ship and kept two of every animal on it for forty days while the whole planet was covered with water that came from nowhere then somehow mysteriously drained away.

That's not what actually happened. Only local animals were placed on the ship and only the local area was flooded. The whole point was to destroy the local disbelievers, not the whole world.
 
I heard the Messenger of Allaah (ﷺ) say: Allaah the Almighty said: O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.
It was related by at-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound.

The only sin that God will not forgive is that of someone rejecting God knowing He exists and dies in that state. All other sins are forgivable just as we can forgive each other for any faults we make against each other.
 
The biggest problem with the flood is that it is a cyclic legend - in that it recycles every so often. The first time on record was in the time of Gilgamesh, but there are Nordic legends telling of the flood as well. Legends that pre-date the Bible. And in this case I'm not talking the Bible of the Council of Nicea but the Bible from the earliest scrolls and writings. The flood story is OLDER than the time of Noah if you use Bishop Ussher's chronology. Which makes it kind of awkward.
 
You chose to believe that rubbish because it suits your prejudices. Common sense tells us that it is impossible to flood the whole planet. There are dozens of anomalies in the story.

Were there kangaroos, koalas and wombats on the Ark? How did they get all the way from Australia to the middle east?

So nobody else had any boats?

The number of people on board could not have managed the dung from all the animals let alone feeding them.

Belief in this kind of nonsense is a definite mark of stupidity regardless of how many others share those beliefs. People can hold stupid beliefs yet be competent in other areas.

Thanks, Galaxiom. I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man, than a fool in the eyes of God ... Fool's gold.
In the words of Petra :)
 
The biggest problem with the flood is that it is a cyclic legend - in that it recycles every so often. The first time on record was in the time of Gilgamesh, but there are Nordic legends telling of the flood as well. Legends that pre-date the Bible. And in this case I'm not talking the Bible of the Council of Nicea but the Bible from the earliest scrolls and writings. The flood story is OLDER than the time of Noah if you use Bishop Ussher's chronology. Which makes it kind of awkward.

I'm not seeing how that weakens the story, rather strengthens it.
 
And you believe this because some ancient ignorant misogynists passed the story down orally until someone wrote it down.


There is zero geological evidence that the crust was different back then. The geological history over billions of years has been determined and it does not match with your delusional assertion at all.


What an idiotic claim.



You use past tense in this statement implying that god has already revealed himself to the rest of the world. Funny that nobody noticed then.

Have you ever considered the the "The Chosen Race" and "The Promised Land" are remarkably similar concepts to "The Master Race" and "The Father Land"? The similarities don't stop there. Both the Hebrews and the Germans perpetrated mass genocides.

Sounds like you are getting angry. I have to warn you, I'm not real interested in whether I am considered 'smart' or 'stupid'.
I'm quite fine being stupid in the eyes of a particular person. The important thing is to submit to God - dumb, stupid, or smart.

Pride is not one of my vices, at least not very much, thankfully, as my signature and decorum have steadfastly proclaimed for years now on AWF.

You'll have to try an angle of attack in some other vein to rile me :)

Hope you have a better rest of the week!

Isaac
 
There is zero geological evidence that the crust was different back then. The geological history over billions of years has been determined and it does not match with your delusional assertion at all.
It's a far cry from zero, but you have already asserted your historical belief as superior to others which must be true because you have asserted to be so. I don't want to get too deep into the archeologists views on this as we would be getting into that particular study and I don't have the time to go deep down that rabbit hole. But there is very good evidence of a world wide flood based on a very flat layer that has no erosion in it. This evidence shows up all over the globe in different countries. Some try and ascribe a long period of time between these layers which doesn't make any sense since time always shows evidence of erosion in the surface for long periods of time. That's just a fact known by any competent archeologist.

157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allaah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no
knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
This is clearly written by a Muslim and not of God's spirit. This breaks the commandment about bearing false witness. Why do Muslims persecute him and even write the lie in their scriptures? The roman's never pretended to crucify anyone, even they knew that Jesus was crucified on the cross to death. It was the most severe penalty anyone could ever receive due to the painful nature of this type of death. To be crucified is not to be hung up on display for while and let down alive. There is no evidence of that at all occurring, but because this false statement is written in your book, you look no further. It's a very strange thing to say that Roman crucifixion is only pretend crucifixion for this one person only. Even their own historians confirm that Jesus got the most severe penalty available at the time.

By their fruits, you shall know who they are.

Quote from Cornelius Tacitus (historian 56-120 AD)

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Quote from Mara Bar-Serapion (Syrian Philosopher 70 AD)

"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgement for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king? …After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men… The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted."

Quote by Phlegon (80-140 AD quote by Origen)

"Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events …but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions."

"Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails."



The only sin that God will not forgive is that of someone rejecting God knowing He exists and dies in that state. All other sins are forgivable just as we can forgive each other for any faults we make against each other.
Surely you are aware that in the old testament, the Jews were commanded by God to built a tabernacle and with it very specific dimensions and instructions for how they were to make burnt offerings to God for the forgiveness of sins. Blood sacrifice was required. Not simply asking God for forgiveness. I would say that is a very big part of what we learn in the old testament, that blood must be shed for the remission of sins. God made that very clear if you cared enough to read it and learn from it.

From God through Moses:
“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

All of this was leading up to the big moment when Jesus appeared on the scene and was declared by God himself as his Son whom he loved and was well pleased, to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. When he rose from the dead, this was the point that animal sacrifices were no longer necessary for the atonement of sin because of God's gift to us all has been given in his son (It is finished). Of course we have to recognize that gift has been given. If not, you would still be offering animal sacrifices on the alter as was done in the old testament period of time. There is no question about this Aziz. None whatsoever, there must be a blood atonement. You cannot just ask for God's forgiveness like you would another person. You are very religious in your beliefs, but God made it very clear how much he hated outward religiousness in persons. The world see's what Muslims do, but God see's what you do in private and knows you heart. I'm not judging you, just rebuking you for claiming that you can simply ask God for forgiveness without any atonement for the sins that you have committed. As a Christian, you would have Christ Jesus to be your atonement, without him, you just have your unatoned sin that you think will just be forgiven just because you acknowledge him as God. Really? Even demons and fallen angels know that he is God.
 
It's a far cry from zero, but you have already asserted your historical belief as superior to others which must be true because you have asserted to be so. I don't want to get too deep into the archeologists views on this as we would be getting into that particular study and I don't have the time to go deep down that rabbit hole. But there is very good evidence of a world wide flood based on a very flat layer that has no erosion in it. This evidence shows up all over the globe in different countries. Some try and ascribe a long period of time between these layers which doesn't make any sense since time always shows evidence of erosion in the surface for long periods of time. That's just a fact known by any competent archeologist

and there is a lot of evidence that something that evolutionists always said was impossible (a canyon being made in a very brief period of time, not millions of yearse), is indeed very possible, and has happened several times in modern history - but that is conveniently ignored by evolutionists, who look instead for things to support their "billions and billions of years" theories, in which anything seems possible because of course, it's billions of years. Too convenient.
 
I'm not seeing how that weakens the story, rather strengthens it.

The story? Has no effect one way or the other. But it demonstrates the derivative nature of the Bible, just as the story of Horus (Egyptian mythos) is an earlier parallel of Jesus. The Bible is nothing more than a retelling of old myths.
 
This is clearly written by a Muslim ...

This is clearly given by God via the Holy Spirit (angel Gabriel) just as the Torah and Injil were given to Moses and Jesus respectively. The main message of the Qur'an is consistent with the SAME message (submission to the will of God alone in His Oneness ) of ALL the Prophets including Jesus (peace be upon them). Anything else is blasphemy as the Christians and Hindus practice by associated partners with God and will end up in HELLFIRE if they die in such a belief.

“Father, if you are WILLING, REMOVE this cup from me; yet, NOT MY WILL but YOURS be done.”
Luke 22:42

Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray
[in violation] against it. And I am not over you a manager."

Qur'an 10:108

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Qur'an al Kafirun 109:1-6

Surely you are aware ...

According to the Bible and the Qur'an, everyone pays for their own sins and hence NO blood sacrifice is required, of that I am 100% sure. Any Biblical verse that says otherwise, then you have a contradiction.

All of this was leading up to the big...

In Islam, we can ask for forgiveness.

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allaah. Indeed, Allaah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
Qur’an - 39:53

And to Allaah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And ever is Allaah Forgiving and Merciful.
Qur’an - 48:14

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allaah is the [final] destination.
Qur’an - Surah Fatir (The Creator) 35:18

and there is a lot of evidence ...

15. “O mankind! You are the ones who are in need of Allaah. And Allaah! He is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise.
16. If He wanted, he could destroy you and bring about a new creation.
17. And that is not hard for Allaah.”

Qur’an - Surah Faatir (The Originator) 35:15-17 See also 30:27 and 14:19-20.

7. (God) is the One who created you, then fashioned you harmoniously and in due proportion;
8. Into whatsoever form He willed, He made you out of components.

Qur’an - Surah al-Infitaar (The Believers) 82:7-8 See also 56:57-62, 71:14, 87:2.
 
The story? Has no effect one way or the other. But it demonstrates the derivative nature of the Bible, just as the story of Horus (Egyptian mythos) is an earlier parallel of Jesus. The Bible is nothing more than a retelling of old myths.
What I meant was isn't it interesting that in any other context of discussion, you would find that corroboration, rather than derivation?
 

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