UK Budget (1 Viewer)

Pauldohert

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I don't think it's so back breaking any more. All the rules they have in place, you can't have your bin over filled, it must be on the kerb side and the handles must be facing the road. It's still physical,, but not as bad as it was say in the 1970s/80s.

The guys in South Africa used to have to run along side the truck (truck driver never stopped, but went at a steady 5mph pace), they would collect the bin from your property, run to the truck, empty it, run back, return it and run on to the next property. I heard that they had a life expectancy of around 35! Hardly surprising! Shame really, they could have retired at 30 and moved here to work as male strippers ;)

No its not as bad as it was - but the claim went back decades I think.
 

Rich

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I feel sorry for the bin men - who chose back breaking work - in part beacuse of its superior pay.

Their not allowed to lift bins anymore, health and safety etc:rolleyes:
 

Pauldohert

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Their not allowed to lift bins anymore, health and safety etc:rolleyes:

Its amazing really that we allowed such back breaking work for so long, considering all that was needed was to put some new fangled technology (the wheel) on a bin, and a lifter on the bin lorry.
 

GaryPanic

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"A lot of my friends are in a position where they are the sole provider in their household at this low pay, and with no children, they cannot claim working family tax benefit to suppliment. "

THe above has no reasoning at all - in regards to pensions (cold and heartless I know)

if you are only putting in 6% of your salary - why should I put in 6% to top yours up ?

forget the morals - pure maths no hard luck stories etc

THe people who are incapable of earning a pension - (less abled or long term illness/accident ) then the system should top there pension pot up - which it does in a fashion - poorly I grant you - but if you are in work you should pay for your pension -no one elses (except those I have have just mentioned)


The only gold plated pensions should be for the armed forces -

all MP should have stakeholder pensions -

if it were up to me I would start at the top - and change the pensions of all Public sector workers

MP then civil servants who work for the MP and govement department heads working downward to the little people - so those on say less than 25K would need a bit more help (higher pay rise but they would have to put the increase into a pension0 anyone over £50 k no straight away move them into stakeholder
those in the middle need a bit more attention possible some help but not as much as those in the bottom bracket
 

oumahexi

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if you are only putting in 6% of your salary - why should I put in 6% to top yours up ?

forget the morals - pure maths no hard luck stories etc

How about because that's what most employers do? Don't most decent employers contribute to your pension plan? Taking into consideration the contribution the government makes to my pension this brings our average salary up to £25500. The average salary for a software developer in the Edinburgh area is £30k. You do the math. Would you like to increase salaries to be in line with the national average or shall we continue to let the government pull the wool over everyone's eyes and make like we are actually really well off?
 

Brianwarnock

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Its amazing really that we allowed such back breaking work for so long, considering all that was needed was to put some new fangled technology (the wheel) on a bin, and a lifter on the bin lorry.

When I was a wee lad our bins had to be on bricks, and a guy would come round and pick it up with what was basically a manual forklift truck device, and take it to the kerb, thus the bin men when they arrived "only" had to lift it to empty it into the laorry, then they carried the empty bin back. Of course we had far less waste in the old days.

Brian
 

GaryPanic

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ah but what the govement is putting in is more than this - if the govement of the day was putting in say 5-6 % and it was matched by the employee this would be fair - however given that public sector works can retire at 60 there is 5 years of 12% that is being funded straight away - I am not blaming the public sector - its the Goverement ( all parties) -however Public sector workers must realise that there has to be some adjustment and either a increase in retirement age or a reduction (or a mixure of both) is on the cards -

what the govement need to do is fix the pensions from day 1 - new employees have to contribute into a stakeholder scheme - one this is not funded by the govement (other than normal monthly contributions as a normal employee ) then the monies in this are ringfenced for this individual

a new legislation was/is to come into effect that from xxxx date all employees are tob e entered into a pension scheme where 3-4 % is paid by the employer and 1% by the employee - ( slight variables along the way) -as there are a lot of companyies that don't offer any pension arrangments

less than half offer a decent pension arrangement
 

oumahexi

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ah but what the govement is putting in is more than this - if the govement of the day was putting in say 5-6 % and it was matched by the employee this would be fair - however given that public sector works can retire at 60 there is 5 years of 12% that is being funded straight away - I am not blaming the public sector - its the Goverement ( all parties) -however Public sector workers must realise that there has to be some adjustment and either a increase in retirement age or a reduction (or a mixure of both) is on the cards -

what the govement need to do is fix the pensions from day 1 - new employees have to contribute into a stakeholder scheme - one this is not funded by the govement (other than normal monthly contributions as a normal employee ) then the monies in this are ringfenced for this individual

a new legislation was/is to come into effect that from xxxx date all employees are tob e entered into a pension scheme where 3-4 % is paid by the employer and 1% by the employee - ( slight variables along the way) -as there are a lot of companyies that don't offer any pension arrangments

less than half offer a decent pension arrangement

Are you actually trying to say that if I retired at 60 the government would continue to pay my pension contributions until I turn 65, as well as paying me out my pension? I would love to hear more about this, hell, I would love to sign up to this! As far as I have been advised, by my employers as well as our union, if I retire early my pension contributions are taken into account, my pension is paid out pro-rata. If what you were suggesting was true then ALL council employees would opt for that option!
 

Pauldohert

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When I was a wee lad our bins had to be on bricks, and a guy would come round and pick it up with what was basically a manual forklift truck device, and take it to the kerb, thus the bin men when they arrived "only" had to lift it to empty it into the laorry, then they carried the empty bin back. Of course we had far less waste in the old days.

Brian


How did the little old lady get the bin onto bricks?

When I was a wee lad - the only thing you would see on bricks was a car - that was soon lifted too.



It reminds me of Rocky - did you do A Capella round it after lighting a fire?
 

Pauldohert

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How about because that's what most employers do? Don't most decent employers contribute to your pension plan? Taking into consideration the contribution the government makes to my pension this brings our average salary up to £25500. The average salary for a software developer in the Edinburgh area is £30k. You do the math. Would you like to increase salaries to be in line with the national average or shall we continue to let the government pull the wool over everyone's eyes and make like we are actually really well off?

Your assuming most are decent employers, in a market with over supply of labour they can and do get away with anything.

Whilst thats obviously not good - why compound the issue - by getting poorly paid and pensioned private sector workers to subsidise the public sector.

Public sector works for us - not the other way round.

Theres no right answer here - but as the labour guy says - good luck there is no money left.

So far the public sector - where half the debt is (ignoring banks) have got away lightly.
 

Rich

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How about because that's what most employers do? Don't most decent employers contribute to your pension plan? Taking into consideration the contribution the government makes to my pension this brings our average salary up to £25500. The average salary for a software developer in the Edinburgh area is £30k. You do the math. Would you like to increase salaries to be in line with the national average or shall we continue to let the government pull the wool over everyone's eyes and make like we are actually really well off?
But then of course the private sector are not entitled to 3yrs wages when made redundant....................
 

oumahexi

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But then of course the private sector are not entitled to 3yrs wages when made redundant....................

Shame, the Government need to update their website then. You offering to do it for them Rich?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/redundancy.dsb

As you can see, you can't calculate your pay above £350 a week and then you only get 10 weeks pay out of them!

Where are you guys getting all this information from?? Do you all read the Sun or what?
 

GaryPanic

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FYI
Based on your responses, Financial Mail has drawn up an eight-point plan for reform, balancing the interests of past and present workers with the bill taxpayers will face.

Keep promises on pensions already earned

Financial Mail has a strong record of defending workers when promised pensions are under threat. And the same applies in the public sector. Trying to strip workers of pensions already earned is morally wrong and is a retro - spective pay cut. Similarly, pensions already being paid to retired workers must remain untouchable.
Whatever changes are made to future pensions, public sector workers should be entitled to the pensions they have already built up. For example, someone with 20 years' service for a pension paid at 60 should be able to take that part of their pension at 60, though they might have to wait longer to draw the pension they earn after reforms bite.
The terms of reference for the new commission appear to acknowledge this. They say pension rights already earned should be protected.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water

There is a general feeling that public pensions are too generous. But any decisions taken in the face of today's massive national debt risk going too far, leaving us with public pensions that are too mean.
Some of the harshest critics say that all pensions linked to salary should be stopped immediately. They say public workers should take their chances on defined contribution pensions where the final amount relies mainly on stock market performance.
But public service unions argue that pensions must be adequate. There is little point in creating a system that leaves lower-paid workers on benefits because their pensions are too modest. So reform must strike a balance.
Stuart Southall, chairman of the Association of Consulting Actuaries, says: 'There is a danger of compounding one unfairness with another by just targeting the public sector.
'It would be unwise to respond by simply increasing employee contributions and by beating down public sector pension benefits rather than looking at the pension problem - private and public sector - in the round.'

Treat all public workers equally

There are many different schemes in the public sector with members paying various contribution rates and retiring at different ages.
Even within the public sector, there is resentment that some workers get a far better deal. For example, firefighter Paul Horton retired from the London Fire Brigade in January after 30 years' service.
Paul, 51, now a fire safety officer, says: 'I paid 11 per cent of my salary, at times more than £330 a month, towards my pension. Compare this with others such as MPs or civil servants who have paid little, sometimes even nothing, towards their pensions.'
There is a strong case for a single 'public service' pension with a common set of rules and contribution rate. Why should a local government administrator pay 7.5 per cent of salary for a pension at 65, while a Civil Service administrator could pay as little as 1.5 per cent for a pension at 60?
The second clear message is that contributions should be levelled up, not down. Many readers, such as Nick Jackman, argue that too many public workers are not paying realistic sums for their pensions.
Nick, 53, a finance manager at a printing company, says contributions from workers should rise across the board to about 12.5 per cent of pay.
Nick, who lives in Winchmore Hill, north London, with wife Peng, says: 'I look at what I need to save to buy a decent pension at today's market rates and it would take lifetime savings of about 25 per cent of pay. Splitting that half-and-half between employee and employer seems fair.'
Hutton is expected to back a shortterm contribution increase for all public sector workers from next April as a stop-gap measure.

Reforms should also apply to today's workers

The biggest criticism of the efforts made to reform public pensions so far is that in too many cases they apply only to new recruits. This has left hundreds of thousands of workers building up unsustainable benefits, some with potentially 30 or 40 years more in the system. The next batch of changes have to apply to all staff for all future service.

Bring retirement age in line with State pension age

The State pension age is already increasing to reflect our improved health and longer lives. Many private sector schemes have introduced-later retirement ages. While there has been some reform of public pensions, it must go further.
The State retirement age, soon to be 66, should become the normal pension age for public schemes. Those who want to stop working earlier will have to save for it themselves.
Legal secretary Angela Gregory is among those who feel the public sector should work longer.
Angela, 62, who is carrying on working until she is 65 to help bolster her pension and retirement savings, says: 'The entire private sector thinks the public sector should carry on working until they are at least 65 before they qualify for a pension.'
Angela, from Hucknall, near Nottingham, is married to Tim, 64, a former accounts manager. She has had to make her own pension arrangements for most of her working life, though her current employer does pay into her pension.
She says: 'Taxpayers cannot be expected to pay for the public sector when they are being deprived of salary rises themselves.'
There must also be a clearer line between the age you stop doing a particular job and the age when you draw a pension.
In some jobs, such as firefighting or the Armed Forces, the physical challenges make it impossible to carry on beyond 50 or 55.
But the practice of immediately drawing a pension at this point is unsustainable. In future, such workers will have to accept they will need to carry on working in a different role, possibly even with a different employer, before drawing their pension at State retirement age.

Look for a halfway house

Public sector pensions are unaffordable in their current form. But there are dangers in passing on all the risks of paying for retirement to employees, whether in the public or the private sector.
This means looking for a halfway house where the costs and risks to the taxpayer are contained, but the State, as the nation's biggest employer, still has a role in providing a secure pension. One option is to introduce a career average pension, based not on your wage when you retire but on average earnings in your working life. This is already used for new recruits in the Civil Service. Another way to contain costs is to cap increases in pensions-already being paid. At the moment, they rise automatically each year in line with inflation.
Last week's Budget made a start. From next April, public pensions will rise in line with consumer price inflation, not retail price inflation. Over time this tends to be slightly lower and the switch is estimated to save £700 million a year.
But there is room to go further. Accounts administrator Doci Morton, 55, who lives in Wilmslow, Cheshire, with husband Martin, 58, an architect, is saving hard for her own retirement.
She says: 'I know that if I want to buy an index-linked income through an annuity, I'm going to have to settle for a much lower starting pension. It could be 40 per cent less on day one. Yet public workers get that inflation guarantee at no extra cost.'
One option would be to switch to limited price inflation where the pension rises by the lower of inflation or 2.5 per cent each year.
Introducing the career average, later retirement ages and limited price inflation would make a salary linked pension more sustainable.

Cap the maximum pension

The maximum pension should be capped. Unfettered pensions for high earners prompt huge resentment. Before the election, the Tories proposed a maximum public pension of £50,000. But feedback from readers suggests a lower level would be popular. A maximum pension of £35,000 a year, for example, still pays £10,000 above average earnings.
Another option, from reader Colin Gould, 53, from Waterlooville, Hampshire, would be a secure salary-linked pension for pay up to a certain level, say £25,000. Beyond that, public workers would save into a defined contribution scheme.
Colin, a former Army officer who has also worked in financial services, says: 'In this way we safeguard the lower paid and their right to a secure pension. And it provides a stable platform for the better paid, allowing them to build on this through a scheme that faces the same risks as most of the private sector.'
Halt the pension abuses

A lot of anger over public sector pensions is directed at those who abuse the system. Historically, it has been far too easy to retire early with no reduction in pension or to benefit from a late promotion to enhance pensionable salary.
Some have even rejoined the public sector near the end of their career for a year or two, with that salary then being used as the benchmark to pay their entire pension.
As Doci Morton says: 'There are numerous cases of people retiring early, then coming back the next week as well-paid consultants.'
While some of the rules have been tightened, there is still a long way to go. Departments should be made to pay the full costs of such early retirements from current budgets.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1289870/This-want-fund-future.html#ixzz0s99firqV
 

oumahexi

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I agree Gary. There have been cases of "abuse" of the system. Not only with early retirees coming back as consultants, but I suspect the whole "Final Salary Pension" can easily be abused. What's stopping a manager from promoting his pals when they get nearer to pension age?

Everyone is shouting today about leaving the bankers alone and allowing them to keep their massive bonuses because if they don't they'll go elsewhere (where? If the world sticks together on the issue, where will they go?) This is the attitude we should be taking with some of our public sector workers. Our Firemen and women and our Police force do not earn huge salaries, do we want to risk losing their loyalty?

I do think though that if you retire at 50-55 you should move on to other employment (if the government see fit to leave some jobs there for us to seek out), not only because you need to continue to contribute to society but I suspect that the prospect of 45 to 50 years' retirement could drive you into all manner of illness. I will not deny that the country is up shit creek, but please, don't take the paddle away!
 

GaryPanic

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I agree Gary. There have been cases of "abuse" of the system. Not only with early retirees coming back as consultants, but I suspect the whole "Final Salary Pension" can easily be abused. What's stopping a manager from promoting his pals when they get nearer to pension age?

This is excactly what bankrupted my first pension - the managers would promote themselves and their friends for the last 2 years of there work life and the final salary was workout on this basis ...(last 2 years added together ad then divided by two and then this was considered the final salary - - this was the nail in the coffin for my pension - it went into liquidation and I have lost about 1/6 of it (orginally i had lost all of it - but
the goverement step in with a rescue package)

Now a different pension ringfenced .... its mine and no one can touch it - safer I contribute in to it as does my employer ---when there is enough in it i will retire - if not i will keep working ...(B&Q here I come - well when I am sixty odd)

Pensions are being changed so if you are getting near pension age - hang fast there is a major change happen that should (please note should) really help you out .. when i found the info i will put it up (pensions are not my speciality )
 

oumahexi

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Thanks Gary. Pensions are not my speciality either. The only thing I know is that I'll probably end up working until I drop because I joined the council way too late to get a massive pension and have made the fatal mistake of buying my house. So I can't see me getting a state pension by then if I already have provision and, although the provision is inadequate, I have property that I could sell so that I can pay rent for the rest of my life.
 

Fifty2One

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That is the problem with the pension handout system, it does not foster good performance but rather promotes putting in minimal effort for the shortest amount of time. Anyhow that David Cameron guy was over in Canada for a few days and was shown how to balance a budget and not spend more then what came in. Maybe things will get better in a few years if everyone is financially responsible.

Thanks Gary. Pensions are not my speciality either. The only thing I know is that I'll probably end up working until I drop because I joined the council way too late to get a massive pension and have made the fatal mistake of buying my house. So I can't see me getting a state pension by then if I already have provision and, although the provision is inadequate, I have property that I could sell so that I can pay rent for the rest of my life.
 

oumahexi

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That is the problem with the pension handout system, it does not foster good performance but rather promotes putting in minimal effort for the shortest amount of time. Anyhow that David Cameron guy was over in Canada for a few days and was shown how to balance a budget and not spend more then what came in. Maybe things will get better in a few years if everyone is financially responsible.

Oh 50! You wouldn't be suggesting that I'm a lazy so-'n-so would you? :D

I'll let you in on a secret. I joined the council more by default than design and, like I say, too late in my life to warrant having joined for a decent pension. Fortunately my previous employers had taken care of that, however, when I joined our pension scheme they did ask me to surrender details of previous pensions, these were consolidated with the current one, it would be nonsense for them to penalise the pension contributions I had accumulated in the UK for the ten years prior to joining the council.

I hardly think that Mr C will make this a better place to live. I can almost see him selling off all the public sector facilities, like his predecessor did with our gas; telecoms and rail services. This may be good for the government, but I doubt it will be good for the public.
 

Fifty2One

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I would not suggest you were lazy as you still have employment. I do know a couple of times they had 'early retirement' schemes to cut some of the way too expensive talent and back fill with a more cost effective employee.
Most government pension schemes are defective and underperform what an individual could provide for themselves if there was not the handout system. Most of the underperformance is due to all of the bureaucracy, ineffective processes and having to pool the funds with bad investments and bailouts. Even corporate pension funds have been underfunded to shore up low margins and now the consequences of robbing peter to pay paul have become very evident.
A lot of crown corporations need to become private and allow other copmanies into the market so they become competative so the services can be regulated and tendered to the benefit of the recipients.

Oh 50! You wouldn't be suggesting that I'm a lazy so-'n-so would you? :D

I'll let you in on a secret. I joined the council more by default than design and, like I say, too late in my life to warrant having joined for a decent pension. Fortunately my previous employers had taken care of that, however, when I joined our pension scheme they did ask me to surrender details of previous pensions, these were consolidated with the current one, it would be nonsense for them to penalise the pension contributions I had accumulated in the UK for the ten years prior to joining the council.

I hardly think that Mr C will make this a better place to live. I can almost see him selling off all the public sector facilities, like his predecessor did with our gas; telecoms and rail services. This may be good for the government, but I doubt it will be good for the public.
 

GaryPanic

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Pension update -

Right currently there is discussion about pensions and annunities (?)
the idea of these was that at age 65-70 you had to be a garenteed income bond with your pension pot .. - howver (Please note discussion only) because of the low rate of return on these - the goveremnt is considering making this optional - and that you can invest in alternatives incomes streams -
Whats the difference - with a "Pension" after you and your partner died the monies was kept by the pension provider - this kinda was ok - on the assumption that a vast majority of people died within 5 years of retiring and a few lived in to their 90's (if you live that long you actual "use" you pension )
other than this its profit for pension companies -

How they are considering letting you invest in a fund that pays x every month - the fund/investment doesn't matter - however you decide what to do with it once you and your partner die - you can hand it down to your children ..

Downside will be that it will be taxed once it passes from you your partner onwards - (its a positive for the govement they get a revenue stream - however the pension compnmaies will loss out ) effectively you will be able to pass 60% of your pension fund on your death to your children or grandchildren -

Please note this is not written in stone - it is in discussion- for proper pension advise speak to a pension expert - Do not speak to your bank....they have a limit market that they approach ...
The pensions people will get commmission on what they sell you and they will advise you of it (Its around 1-2%- you would be charged this anyway whether you use them or not) some might want a fee and no commission - fees are around £2K -

If you pension pot is bigger than £250K this might be an option for you ?

If you pension pot is > £500K then you need wealth management and this is a highly specialised product - if you are lucky to be in this catagory - I do know some people who really know their stuff - but it depends on where you are based
 

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