US "Government Shutdown" (1 Viewer)

Rx_

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Collin: I was a federal government contractor during President Carter's many shutdowns. The federal workers don't show up, but will be paid in full when the budget is approved.
Contractors had to borrow money to keep workers paid at high interest then take the loss later when they were back-paid.
These shutdown's also serve to keep the National Debt within ratings so the USD Credit Ratings don't drop. It is pretzel math and rules for the World's Reserve Currency that is dropping in popularity every month. The National Debt can never be repaid with currency equal to today's purchasing power. So as a foreigner, please, please invest in the US Debt because we know better, but need our Wall Street multi-billionaires to keep up appearances.
 

The_Doc_Man

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Rx, the furloughed contractors don't ALWAYS get paid back pay for lost time. Frequently they do but it is not 100% guaranteed. My friend who is moving, for example, lost his job because of the shutdown and was offered a position to return that would have represented a 25% or 30% pay cut. The cheap-arse contracting company found loopholes so that they would not have to take out a loan to keep their employees on the payroll for that time when the shutdown ended.
 

Vassago

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Congress, the Republican Congress, passed a budget bill in December before the Democrats took control. Trump vetoed it. Let's not pretend this shut down was completely in Trump's hands from the beginning.

Trump also continues to state that he will use executive order to declare it as an emergency and fund the wall. He could have done this throughout the entire shut down to end the problem. Why hasn't he?

Trump claims that the new trade deal will fund the wall. Why not put his money where his mouth is? Wait for the money to come in and use it for the wall instead of forcing American tax payers to pay for something that was promises Mexico would pay for? Does he not really believe it?

Both sides are playing political games to get the other to cave at the expense of American workers. Far left and far right fans keep purposely dodging these points. Why aren't more people actually calling them both out for their ridiculousness?
 

Steve R.

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Trump also continues to state that he will use executive order to declare it as an emergency and fund the wall. He could have done this throughout the entire shut down to end the problem. Why hasn't he?
I sincerely hope that he does not. Obviously, I can't read his mind, but his threats concerning the declarations of an emergency appear to be bluster.

Trump claims that the new trade deal will fund the wall. Why not put his money where his mouth is? Wait for the money to come in and use it for the wall instead of forcing American tax payers to pay for something that was promises Mexico would pay for? Does he not really believe it?
Seems like reaching for straws.

Both sides are playing political games to get the other to cave at the expense of American workers. Far left and far right fans keep purposely dodging these points. Why aren't more people actually calling them both out for their ridiculousness?
The quick answer, the mob (electorate) is dumb. The Democrats know how to motivate/manipulate the mob. Moreover, Democrats have a significant portion of the media behind them. The Republicans are plain incompetent when it comes to gutter politics.

Additionally, the Democrats in Congress act as monolithic automatons blindly implementing the Democratic agenda. Republicans in Congress, on the other hand, are much more independent and are willing to publicly oppose Republican leadership.


Far left and far right fans keep purposely dodging these points.
The wall, to me, is/was a red-herring. The fundamental issue is revising immigration law as a means to enhance border security, a $0 cost (more or less) solution. (immediate deportation) So far, neither side seems to be raising revisions to the law as a potential solution.

I would speculate that the politicians do not really want to make "tough" realpolitik solutions, but only faux solutions that really don't address illegal immigration.
 
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Close the border, stop all commerce with Mexico. let the migrants stall out on the Mexico side. Force Mexico to feed and house them.

Enforce asylum laws requiring asylum seekers to register at the first point of entry period. Any other claims would be rejected, and the migrant returned back to the Mexico side.

Take all the electronic surveillance the Democrats are willing to fund, and still push for your campaign promises.

Trade DACA for partial funding.

eezy peezy:D
 

kevlray

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In California. Illegal immigrants can get a drivers license and medical care. Not sure if they can get food stamps and other services from the state (i.e, cash aid). Of course most of them get paid 'under the table' (i.e, their income is not reported to the state or to the Feds). Thus they do not pay any income tax. They are willing to work at jobs that pay lower than the minimum wage or in lousy working conditions.
 

The_Doc_Man

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While I absolutely despise the illegal nature of their actions, I understand that they take lousy jobs. The work of Herbert Maslow showed a "pyramid" of motivations and from the jobs they are taking, it is clear that they are at the "survival" level of motivation. If they were paid, I'm sure they they would move bricks from point A to point B and back again repetitively with no net effect (except getting paid.) That was, in fact, one of the experiments performed in India as part of his research, I believe.

If they are at the level of "survival" motivations, to be honest there is no way short of "gun to the head" to make them try to become legal. Therefore, expect many of them to be incredibly desperate and persistent. Once deported, they will return. That level of motivation does that to people.
 

Frothingslosh

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Congress, the Republican Congress, passed a budget bill in December before the Democrats took control. Trump vetoed it. Let's not pretend this shut down was completely in Trump's hands from the beginning.
Just to clarify, Trump didn't veto it - he THREATENED to veto it (despite its unanimous passage through the Senate), which led to the still-GOP-controlled House to tack on the $5.7 billion for the wall despite the Senate Democrats stating that they absolutely, positively would not vote for a funding CR that contained money for Trump's wall. The bill never went through reconciliation since there was zero chance of the Senate approving the House version of the bill, and the GOP wasn't willing to face down Trump and use congress's veto override ability.

Once the shutdown was in effect, McConnell spent over a month blocking any bill that didn't have Trump's permission. When he finally allowed votes on two competing bills, that wasn't an attempt to get either passed - that was McConnell showing the White House that they were beginning to hemorrage GOP votes on the matter.

Trump caused the shutdown, but McConnell and the rest of the Republicans enabled it.

Trump also continues to state that he will use executive order to declare it as an emergency and fund the wall. He could have done this throughout the entire shut down to end the problem. Why hasn't he?
Probably because his lawyers and experienced political people are telling him it won't fly. Even McConnell understands that creating a precedent where POTUS is allowed to bypass Congress any time he wants is dangerous erosion of Congressional authority and a potential constitutional crisis, and he has too much invested in being the actual power in government to allow that to happen. On top of that, it's going to be awfully hard to convince even right-wing judges that there is an actual emergency when Trump keeps waiting and waiting to declare his state of emergency.

Trump claims that the new trade deal will fund the wall. Why not put his money where his mouth is? Wait for the money to come in and use it for the wall instead of forcing American tax payers to pay for something that was promises Mexico would pay for? Does he not really believe it?
Almost certainly not. That's just another case of him saying whatever comes to mind to placate the people who believe everything he says. It's not even remotely an attempt to convince moderate voters.

Both sides are playing political games to get the other to cave at the expense of American workers. Far left and far right fans keep purposely dodging these points. Why aren't more people actually calling them both out for their ridiculousness?
I would disagree with that paragraph. Pelosi and the Democrats said from the start that they would under no circumstances fund Trump's wall as his requirement to allow the government to function. Their position never waved on that from well BEFORE this thing ever blew up, and in the end, they got almost precisely what they wanted - the continuing resolution that had been unanimously passed by the Senate back in December. The only thing they probably weren't happy about was that it's only a 3 week resolution, but even that short duration was something the Democrats put on the table early on.

The only real politicizing is the blame game. The Democrats hold Trump personally responsible and getting the majority of the blame and the GOP getting the rest for meekly giving in to his extortionate demands, while the GOP is busy painting the entire thing (as seen on their official Twitter account) as entirely the fault of Democrats not stepping aside and letting Trump and the GOP do whatever they want.

The important part was what the public thinks, and overall, recent pools place blame 60% on Trump, 30% on Democrats, and 10% to the GOP as a whole, and this is including the partisan percentages, where at one point 90% of GOP voters blamed the Democrats for not doing what Trump said, rather than Trump for his veto promise or the GOP members of Congress for not stepping up and keeping government open over his veto threat. That means that the deciding group - the moderates and unaffiliated - overwhelmingly blamed Trump as well, and that's what's going to be remembered.
 

The_Doc_Man

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Another viewpoint...

I agree with Mr. Trump (and actually, so did a previous incarnation of Congress when Mr. Obama was President) that we need to address border security. OK? We need to address it. What we are doing isn't working.

In this forum, I have said I believe the wall is not a good answer. In history, large static walls have been poor at keeping out people. The solution is manpower. Problem is, we don't have enough people to do that kind of patrolling for a 700 mile border. And the Republicans don't want to expand the size of government as they would implicitly have to do to get that many border patrol agents on the job. They wanted SMALLER government so the wall (being passive and requiring less cost of upkeep) was their ideal solution.

The REAL solution is more agents - more boots on the ground - to round up illegals and deport them. That won't happen because Republicans don't want to grow government staffing (direct OR contracted) and the Democrats don't want to lose potential voters if they ever have their way and somehow get the illegals into voting booths. So no vested interest exists on either side of the aisle in implementing the right solution.

Besides that, I don't trust the government to build a 700-mile structure like that and get it right. They built the levees in New Orleans and the shoddy oversight allowed various contractors to take shortcuts. The aftermath of Hurricane Katrina convinced me that I don't EVER want the government building things like that again without citizen oversight.

So if you want to put me in a pigeonhole, put me in the one that says "dislikes illegal immigration but also dislikes the wall (by itself) as a good solution."
 
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Vassago

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Just to clarify, Trump didn't veto it - he THREATENED to veto it (despite its unanimous passage through the Senate), which led to the still-GOP-controlled House to tack on the $5.7 billion for the wall despite the Senate Democrats stating that they absolutely, positively would not vote for a funding CR that contained money for Trump's wall. The bill never went through reconciliation since there was zero chance of the Senate approving the House version of the bill, and the GOP wasn't willing to face down Trump and use congress's veto override ability.
Tomato, tomato.

Almost certainly not. That's just another case of him saying whatever comes to mind to placate the people who believe everything he says. It's not even remotely an attempt to convince moderate voters.
But the bulk of Trump supporters keep repeating it. It's amazing to me that they will continue to repeat what he says, no matter how absurd.

The only real politicizing is the blame game. The Democrats hold Trump personally responsible and getting the majority of the blame and the GOP getting the rest for meekly giving in to his extortionate demands, while the GOP is busy painting the entire thing (as seen on their official Twitter account) as entirely the fault of Democrats not stepping aside and letting Trump and the GOP do whatever they want.
Isn't that basically what I said?

The important part was what the public thinks, and overall, recent pools place blame 60% on Trump, 30% on Democrats, and 10% to the GOP as a whole, and this is including the partisan percentages, where at one point 90% of GOP voters blamed the Democrats for not doing what Trump said, rather than Trump for his veto promise or the GOP members of Congress for not stepping up and keeping government open over his veto threat. That means that the deciding group - the moderates and unaffiliated - overwhelmingly blamed Trump as well, and that's what's going to be remembered.
I'm in that last pool. I blame Trump, only because of how insane the idea really is more so than his influence on the GOP Senate to not allow any bills to pass.

So if you want to put me in a pigeonhole, put me in the one that says "dislikes illegal immigration but also dislikes the wall (by itself) as a good solution."
It's a small company, isn't it? :banghead:
 

Vassago

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In California. Illegal immigrants can get a drivers license and medical care. Not sure if they can get food stamps and other services from the state (i.e, cash aid). Of course most of them get paid 'under the table' (i.e, their income is not reported to the state or to the Feds). Thus they do not pay any income tax. They are willing to work at jobs that pay lower than the minimum wage or in lousy working conditions.
All people can get life-saving medical care at the federal level. I believe that children qualify for federal SNAP benefits at the federal level, but most adults do not qualify. I am ok with these two points. Nobody should be forced to die and children should not go hungry, illegal or no.

State/city benefits are outside the realm of my care. My money doesn't go there unless it's MY state/city. They should be allowed to do what they want with theirs. Their legislation passes these bills to allow these benefits and their voters keep them in office, so it's whatever.
 

Frothingslosh

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Tomato, tomato.
That difference is why they can get away with blaming Democrats, and it's one reason a lot of independents DO blame Democrats.


But the bulk of Trump supporters keep repeating it. It's amazing to me that they will continue to repeat what he says, no matter how absurd.
That used to surprise me, but not any longer. There is a certain tendency to believe what you're told by those you consider to be 'rightful' leaders, but both studies and simple observation indicate that that tendency tends to be a LOT stronger in conservatives. That's one reason so many discussions between liberals and conservatives boil down to liberals going 'but here are the facts and research!' with conservatives responding with whatever their accepted leaders tell them. It can be police violence against blacks, climate change, or whether or not Trump actually said what he said on live TV the week before, doesn't matter. American conservatives have reached the point that they will honestly believe what GOP leadership says no matter how blatantly false or idiotic it will be. We've seen that time and time again since Der Orangenführer got elected, and it's done nothing but get more and more widespread.

Isn't that basically what I said?
Not really. You said that both sides politicized the blame game, and I don't see how stating what you were willing to do and then standing firm is politicizing it. Pointing out the plain, unvarnished truth is really not being political even when the other side is lying through its teeth. (And you really should check out that GOP tweet laying full blame on the Democrats and claiming to be the entire reason the shutdown was ended 'despite Democratic opposition'. Laying blame on the Democrats for the actions of Trump and the GOP - THAT is political.)

I'm in that last pool. I blame Trump, only because of how insane the idea really is more so than his influence on the GOP Senate to not allow any bills to pass.
Trump caused it by promising to veto any funding bill that didn't give him his wall, and Mitch McConnell enabled it because they refused to stand up and exert the powers and prerogatives granted them by the Constitution. Had they acted like an actual legislature, they would have passed the bill that the Senate approved back in December, gotten the veto, and then either overridden it or failed to do so. The fact that they allowed themselves to be cowed by Trump, whether out of party loyalty or fear of looking weak and ineffective, means I personally consider them to be nearly as blameworthy as the Orange One. (Oh, and I also definitely consider Fox News and the rest of the right-wing mouthpieces to have a small amount of the blame, too; they were the ones who triggered the whole thing by losing their minds when the CR was first passed and calling Trump weak for allowing it.)

It's a small company, isn't it? :banghead:
That it is. Hatred of Central and South American immigrants and support for the wall generally seem to go hand-in-hand.
 

Micron

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Some interesting points there. Main one that I disagree with is that he's not fulfilling a promise because Mexico isn't paying for the wall. Not in any fashion. Saying that the funds will come from the trade agreement is just another lie.
 
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Hatred of Central and South American immigrants and support for the wall generally seem to go hand-in-hand.
If the left really believes this mantra they would focus on the people who are in desperate need in this country. Once you have solved Americas homeless plague, then feel free to import the next batch of poverty.

The left always wants to move on to the next colored lapel ribbon, and pretend they care on the red carpet.

The rest of America does take notice, they are just quiet in the ballot box. They tend to mislead the left's mouth piece CNN.
 

Vassago

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If the left really believes this mantra they would focus on the people who are in desperate need in this country. Once you have solved Americas homeless plague, then feel free to import the next batch of poverty.

The left always wants to move on to the next colored lapel ribbon, and pretend they care on the red carpet.

The rest of America does take notice, they are just quiet in the ballot box. They tend to mislead the left's mouth piece CNN.
What if I told you that caring for children in need doesn't have to be divided by borders? How about we take the border wall money and use it to care for the American homeless?
 

Vassago

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That difference is why they can get away with blaming Democrats, and it's one reason a lot of independents DO blame Democrats.

That used to surprise me, but not any longer. There is a certain tendency to believe what you're told by those you consider to be 'rightful' leaders, but both studies and simple observation indicate that that tendency tends to be a LOT stronger in conservatives. That's one reason so many discussions between liberals and conservatives boil down to liberals going 'but here are the facts and research!' with conservatives responding with whatever their accepted leaders tell them. It can be police violence against blacks, climate change, or whether or not Trump actually said what he said on live TV the week before, doesn't matter. American conservatives have reached the point that they will honestly believe what GOP leadership says no matter how blatantly false or idiotic it will be. We've seen that time and time again since Der Orangenführer got elected, and it's done nothing but get more and more widespread.



Not really. You said that both sides politicized the blame game, and I don't see how stating what you were willing to do and then standing firm is politicizing it. Pointing out the plain, unvarnished truth is really not being political even when the other side is lying through its teeth. (And you really should check out that GOP tweet laying full blame on the Democrats and claiming to be the entire reason the shutdown was ended 'despite Democratic opposition'. Laying blame on the Democrats for the actions of Trump and the GOP - THAT is political.)

Trump caused it by promising to veto any funding bill that didn't give him his wall, and Mitch McConnell enabled it because they refused to stand up and exert the powers and prerogatives granted them by the Constitution. Had they acted like an actual legislature, they would have passed the bill that the Senate approved back in December, gotten the veto, and then either overridden it or failed to do so. The fact that they allowed themselves to be cowed by Trump, whether out of party loyalty or fear of looking weak and ineffective, means I personally consider them to be nearly as blameworthy as the Orange One. (Oh, and I also definitely consider Fox News and the rest of the right-wing mouthpieces to have a small amount of the blame, too; they were the ones who triggered the whole thing by losing their minds when the CR was first passed and calling Trump weak for allowing it.)

That it is. Hatred of Central and South American immigrants and support for the wall generally seem to go hand-in-hand.
Valid points
 

Frothingslosh

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What if I told you that caring for children in need doesn't have to be divided by borders? How about we take the border wall money and use it to care for the American homeless?
But...but...they don't deserve it! They made their choices and chose to be poor and homeless!

Both common arguments used by conservatives to oppose every single freaking attempt at helping the poverty-stricken and homeless. Then those same people come right back and blame liberals for not magically solving those same issues that conservatives oppose solving.
 

Vassago

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Some interesting points there. Main one that I disagree with is that he's not fulfilling a promise because Mexico isn't paying for the wall. Not in any fashion. Saying that the funds will come from the trade agreement is just another lie.
Good luck getting any Trump supporters to see that.
 
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What if I told you that caring for children in need doesn't have to be divided by borders? How about we take the border wall money and use it to care for the American homeless?
You've had 8 long years to make that argument, the left has squandered their many chances.

Somebody needs to take care of these folks before importing more misery!

 

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