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[KenHigg]

Glad you asked

Our political/lobbying system has become a parody of itself because of the very nature of the system. The system itself is basically a barter system of "you scratch my back..." in which you give (and take) in order to come to a mutually agreed upon center ground. Over time, it becomes basic knowledge that when entering into negotiations for anything, you must be prepared to cede some of your wishes in order to look like a willing participant and engender trust and cooperation in the other side. Knowing that, you automatically up the ante so that your "capitulation" isn't really a capitulation but a pseudo-negotiated return to what you wanted in the first place. (like buying a car) This is why they all look like extremists...they're really just going over the top to insure that the basics of their wants are taken care of. Why do think actors do so well?

Something else I was going to say on the gun control issue is that it is very difficult to do a national type stance when the issues are so different when you go from a heavily populated urban environment verses a wide open rural area. Like maybe tighter control in the cities and not so controlled in the country areas...?!?

 

[nomorehype]

If I had to guess I'd say you are right. They probably have professional strategist that try to get them as much attention as they can...

But back to your assertion that you hate Americans because they stand for everything the NRA promotes; I'd say that very few Americans are as adamant on all the gun issues as the NRA. The ace in the hole that they play off of is where they claim certain entities in the gov are out to ban all guns and their goal is to oppose this ban.

In the end, I'd say most Americans are against a total ban, but have no problem with certain other controls. Like assault type guns - Ban 'em. Waiting periods for a background check before you buy a gun - No problem. Get the picture... Just because you see Heston spouting off on the tele, don't mean we all have his views on gun control...

These are of course just my views... I'm curious as to how some of the other US posters feel on the topic...

Oh, of course. I wouldn't imagine for a minute that Heston is representative of the average NRA member (if there is such a thing). I did so enjoy that Moore bloke wandering up to Hestons villa and giving him what for though . To be honest, I plucked the NRA out of the ether, just as an example of something - *it seems to me* that membership conveys with it an instruction that you must be a /vocal/ member, own at least half a dozen weapons capable of dispensing death at a rate of 25 per second, shove at least four big stickers on your bumper saying basically 'I love the NRA because its my right to do so', and just generally ensure that nobody tramples on your right to shoot the bloke next door because his cat pee'd on your lawn.

And /why/? Well, because you /can/. Nobody seems to come up with a plausible reason why everyone needs a gun, except maybe because everyone /else/ has one. We've had our share of gun tragedies over here, but the US makes those pale into insignificance with Columbine and similar disasters. You /allegedly/ have some of the highest gun crime in the Western world, drive by shootings are commonplace, etc. but the NRA seems to defeat all of this with the simplistic argument that 'guns dont kill people, people kill people'. 'Course, all of that is just my perception of them, but it goes toward the argument that other countries see America as evil and why.

I could have picked any one of a hundred other organisations as an example, or a hundred other 'inconsistencies', like America's stance on pollution -v- their failure to sign up to Kyoto, their defence of 'freedom above all' -v- Camp X-ray, their assurance that they are committed to helping other nations -v- their status as one of the lowest givers of aid, etc. No /one/ of those things is sufficient to turn a nations opinion against you, but the /cumulative/ effect is 'Wow, what a bunch of ****holes...'. You can't blame the world for harbouring a grudge when all they see is bad!

 

[Bodisathva]

Like maybe tighter control in the cities and not so controlled in the country areas

I would agree, but what criteria do you use? While there is a difference between the type of firearms used for hunting and those used for...entertainment, it wouldn't be possible to say "you can only sell these". Maybe proof that the purchaser either does actually possess a valid hunting license and has completed an approved hunter's safety course, or has access to an appropriate facility or area for use of the weapon? Then what do you do for those that wish only to protect their homes? Or businessmen that make large cash deposits after closing? This is not something which can be easily solved without infringing upon someone's rights...that's the problem

 

[KenHigg]

Oh, of course. I wouldn't imagine for a minute that Heston is representative of the average NRA member (if there is such a thing). I did so enjoy that Moore bloke wandering up to Hestons villa and giving him what for though . To be honest, I plucked the NRA out of the ether, just as an example of something - *it seems to me* that membership conveys with it an instruction that you must be a /vocal/ member, own at least half a dozen weapons capable of dispensing death at a rate of 25 per second, shove at least four big stickers on your bumper saying basically 'I love the NRA because its my right to do so', and just generally ensure that nobody tramples on your right to shoot the bloke next door because his cat pee'd on your lawn.

And /why/? Well, because you /can/. Nobody seems to come up with a plausible reason why everyone needs a gun, except maybe because everyone /else/ has one. We've had our share of gun tragedies over here, but the US makes those pale into insignificance with Columbine and similar disasters. You /allegedly/ have some of the highest gun crime in the Western world, drive by shootings are commonplace, etc. but the NRA seems to defeat all of this with the simplistic argument that 'guns dont kill people, people kill people'. 'Course, all of that is just my perception of them, but it goes toward the argument that other countries see America as evil and why.

I could have picked any one of a hundred other organisations as an example, or a hundred other 'inconsistencies', like America's stance on pollution -v- their failure to sign up to Kyoto, their defence of 'freedom above all' -v- Camp X-ray, their assurance that they are committed to helping other nations -v- their status as one of the lowest givers of aid, etc. No /one/ of those things is sufficient to turn a nations opinion against you, but the /cumulative/ effect is 'Wow, what a bunch of ****holes...'. You can't blame the world for harbouring a grudge when all they see is bad!

Well, when you put it that way seems you have a pretty sound argument. Still the bottom line is that we're not a bunch of ***holes. We're mothers and fathers, sons & daughters, getting up every morning just like you and we go off to do the best we can to put food on the table and a roof over our head. We don't have a some hidden agenda to take over the world and ignore the cries for help from those less fortunate.

We do realize our political system is screwed up but it's the best we can do and besides, who's system isn't screwed up...

Sorry that you have this pent up anger against us - I for one, apologize for our short-comings as a nation. We'll try to do better...

(I do bag my lawn clippings and recycle them as mulch )

 

[nomorehype]

This is not something which can be easily solved without infringing upon someone's rights...that's the problem

That's /just/ the point - preserving some /individual/ rights at a cost of /everyone's/ right not to get shot. There's a whole sub-argument there too, in that creating law only affects law-abiders, so the anti-gun argument is itself simplistic, but as an example it holds true. There is a gun 'culture' in the US, and the NRA seeks (seemingly) to /promote/ that, rather than hide it

 

[KenHigg]

That's /just/ the point - preserving some /individual/ rights at a cost of /everyone's/ right not to get shot. There's a whole sub-argument there too, in that creating law only affects law-abiders, so the anti-gun argument is itself simplistic, but as an example it holds true. There is a gun 'culture' in the US, and the NRA seeks (seemingly) to /promote/ that, rather than hide it

But the gun law is only addressing a symptom of the bigger issue...

 

[nomorehype]

Sorry that you have this pent up anger against us - I for one, apologize for our short-comings as a nation. We'll try to do better... QUOTE]
Okay, lets try and take the personal element out of it a moment. As a fully-paid up member of USA, inc. rather than as an individual, do you understand why fully paid up members of UK plc, or France ltd, or even Afghanistan company, think you're the 'bad guys on the block'. We're not attempting to /explain/ these feelings in this conversation, merely to accept that they exist at all. American's often dismiss other's attitude to them as "jealousy" - 'fess up now you know that's true - when that patently isn't the case.

 

[KenHigg]

Sorry that you have this pent up anger against us - I for one, apologize for our short-comings as a nation. We'll try to do better... QUOTE]
Okay, lets try and take the personal element out of it a moment. As a fully-paid up member of USA, inc. rather than as an individual, do you understand why fully paid up members of UK plc, or France ltd, or even Afghanistan company, think you're the 'bad guys on the block'. We're not attempting to /explain/ these feelings in this conversation, merely to accept that they exist at all. American's often dismiss other's attitude to them as "jealousy" - 'fess up now you know that's true - when that patently isn't the case.

I think I said 'Sorry'. What else do you want?

How about this as a counter point: Fix your own screwed up country before you tell us how to fix ours. Do you understand that?

 

[nomorehype]

I think I said 'Sorry'. What else do you want?

How about this as a counter point: Fix your own screwed up country before you tell us how to fix ours. Do you understand that?

Yikes. Well I thought Britland was relatively benign and the only people opposed was them that are opposed to basically everywhere and a few sandal-wearers in Harlow who didn't get some lottery money for their "Save the lesbian ethnic-minority whale" campaign. Okay, I'll see what I can do - what precisely would you like fixed?

 

[KenHigg]

Yikes. Well I thought Britland was relatively benign and the only people opposed was them that are opposed to basically everywhere and a few sandal-wearers in Harlow who didn't get some lottery money for their "Save the lesbian ethnic-minority whale" campaign. Okay, I'll see what I can do - what precisely would you like fixed?

Hum... See if you can get the American tele re-runs taken off the air... They seem to be screwing up your perception of life in the US...

 

[nomorehype]

Hum... See if you can get the American tele re-runs taken off the air...

Well, okay, but half a dozen cable stations will need to close, and throw all of their staff on the welfare state where will have 3x as much disposable income as they did before (or 4x if they have a prediliction for members of the same genital group)

They seem to be screwing up your perception of life in the US...

Oh, you mean the /news/

 

[Bodisathva]

I was thinking about the frightening amount of misplaced animosity and anger that's been circling about as of late and really tried to figure it out. I suppose it all boils down to we are or we aren't what the ne'er-do-wells think we are, in which case:

1. We really aren't all as bad as they think. They are using a broad brush (some would say a the paint can itself) to paint a canvas so much larger than they are used to, so they sit and stew, bringing themselves to a boiling point over issues which they themselves have brought to a paranoid, hysterical state...which is both pathetic and sad that they spend their lives in such a state of fear and anger.
   
   
2. We really are the warmongering, country annexing, global domination machine they fear us to be, in which case: Sit down, relax, have some tea and another crumpet...someone will be along to begin the ass-kickery and subjugation of your puny little island shortly.

 

[KenHigg]

Oh, you mean the /news/

But I think if guys cut down on your steady diet of Chips p ), we'll be past a major hurdle...

 

[Matt Greatorex]

Another example, we never used to have "trick or treat" here. But what with it being shown on telly in US films / US programmes etc. British kids have adopted it
Col

Pure curiosity: I know it came from the US, but when? I definitely remember going trick or treating, back in the '70s. Does anyone remember doing it in the UK farther back than that?

 

[nomorehype]

I was thinking about the frightening amount of misplaced animosity and anger that's been circling about as of late and really tried to figure it out. I suppose it all boils down to we are or we aren't what the ne'er-do-wells think we are, in which case:

1. We really aren't all as bad as they think. They are using a broad brush (some would say a the paint can itself) to paint a canvas so much larger than they are used to, so they sit and stew, bringing themselves to a boiling point over issues which they themselves have brought to a paranoid, hysterical state...which is both pathetic and sad that they spend their lives in such a state of fear and anger.

1. 
   Some would say that it would be 'pathetic and sad' to sit idly by, having discovered a great wrong being perpetrated. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
   

   [*]We really are the warmongering, country annexing, global domination machine they fear us to be, in which case: Sit down, relax, have some tea and another crumpet...someone will be along to begin the ass-kickery and subjugation of your puny little island shortly.

Alas, I fear 'tis already upon us.
Still, 'puny' we might be, but that didn't stop the mighty US asking for a little help when it spread itself too thinly!

 

[nomorehype]

Chips p )

freedom fries?

 

[KenHigg]

freedom fries?

Cute...

I'm kind of tired of fussin' for a while

 

[dan-cat]

Some would say that it would be 'pathetic and sad' to sit idly by, having discovered a great wrong being perpetrated. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

Triply so, when you have voted this 'wrong' in three times consecutively ...

Still, 'puny' we might be, but that didn't stop the mighty US asking for a little help when it spread itself too thinly!

Doesn't stop the UK from asking for a little help in protecting some rock-pile in the South Atlantic either does it? It's called D-I-P-L-O-M-A-C-Y.

 

[Bodisathva]

Doesn't stop the UK from asking for a little help in protecting some rock-pile in the South Atlantic either does it? It's called D-I-P-L-O-M-A-C-Y.

psst...Dan...don't encourage him. I know from Rich's posts that the UK knows full well about sarcasm.

Hmmm...sarcasm fails. Over-the-top fails. Subtlety fails. Logic fails. You sure hes not Dubya himself?

 

[ColinEssex]

Pure curiosity: I know it came from the US, but when? I definitely remember going trick or treating, back in the '70s. Does anyone remember doing it in the UK farther back than that?

I'm not really old enough - but Rich will be able to tell you if it was around in the 50's and 60's

Col