Is it worth working?

[ColinEssex]

An acquaintance of mine I meet from time to time is aged 50. He has virtually never worked apart from "cash in hand" jobs. He has a nice little flat supplied by the council, rent is paid by housing benefit, all bills are paid by the council except gas and electric. Any work needed in the flat is paid for by the council. He has a free bus pass so can effectively travel by bus anywhere in the UK for free.
He gets unemployment benefit and clears around £800 to £900 per month.

He lives alone, and has just discovered if he goes to the Salvation Army and pleads poverty, he gets a voucher for free food from the food bank. He has never paid tax or a national insurance stamp.

He gets free optician glasses and free dental care and obviously free healthcare and free prescriptions.

I left school at 15 and worked till I was 60, never been on the dole or claimed anything. I paid everything myself.

Who is the mug?

Col

 

[Rabbie]

I think all of us in the UK who worked for a living know the answer to that

 

[Brianwarnock]

How does he get a bus pass at 50, is there something you are not telling us?

Brian

 

[ColinEssex]

How does he get a bus pass at 50, is there something you are not telling us?

Brian

I just assumed that as he was on the dole he automatically got one, I have no idea. If one is on the dole does one not get one normally?
You can't be expected to pay bus fares to interviews, which he does badly at on purpose, because on basic wage he would lose all the things he gets for free.

He got 5 supermarket bags of food for free yesterday from the food bank, he told me today he hasn't got enough cupboard space.

Do you think the benefit system needs adjusting?

Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

Of course the benefit system is flawed, but to make it fair would require an army of inspectors and could cost more than it saves, nonetheless I am sure some simple changes could be done, tightening it up would be a vote loser, we saw what happened when Maggie tried to introduce the Poll Tax, one of the best ideas ever, mind you it was badly sold and implemented.

The Americans went to war on the slogan
" no taxation without representation"
We should have
"No representation without taxation"
And don't get me started on postal votes!

Brian

 

[Frothingslosh]

The problem with a poll tax is that it is exclusionary. The UK, as with the USA, grants all citizens the right to vote. Hell, unlike in so many states, in the UK even prisoners, the homeless, and mental institution residents are allowed to vote. The poll tax, however, undoes that - it effectively states that you aren't a citizen unless you meet a certain arbitrary financial standard.

Poll taxes serve no purpose other than disenfranchising the poor, making them, at best, second-class citizens.

 

[Brianwarnock]

The poll tax was on a sliding scale, my old mum who only had her state old age pension managed to pay it.

Why should those who do not contribute have a say in how the money is spent?

Brian

 

[CJ_London]

Those who choose not to work (I'm not talking about those who do want to work) have a belief it is their right to do so. Consequently they also either have to believe that everyone else has an obligation to support that belief or have no sense of where the money comes from (like children and pocket money).

 

[Rabbie]

The problem with a poll tax is that it is exclusionary. The UK, as with the USA, grants all citizens the right to vote. Hell, unlike in so many states, in the UK even prisoners, the homeless, and mental institution residents are allowed to vote. The poll tax, however, undoes that - it effectively states that you aren't a citizen unless you meet a certain arbitrary financial standard.

Poll taxes serve no purpose other than disenfranchising the poor, making them, at best, second-class citizens.

A few points you may not have got quite right, Froth.

The UK still denies the vote in parliamentary elections to those who are insane, members of the House of Lords and those in prison with a sentence of longer than one year. There has been a decision by the European Civil Rights Court to change the law as regards to prisoners but this has not yet gone through.

The so-called Poll Tax or Community Charge was brought in by Maggie Thatcher to replace existing local taxes. It had nothing to do with your right to vote.

 

[Frothingslosh]

It is a tax that prevents people below an arbitrary income from voting. It is blatantly and obviously disenfranchisement of the poor.

Just because you (Brian and CJ) don't feel that poor people are citizens, it doesn't mean you're right. All I see is you spouting that old belief that the poor are not deserving of the same rights as those who aren't poor, that they are somehow inferior to you.

I will admit that I don't know your unwritten constitution as well as I know the written American one, but so far I have found anything in your laws and other documents saying that poor people are less deserving of rights than affluent people. It's the same 'they aren't really people' crap we have to deal with here, too.

There's a reason we amended our Constitution to flat-out outlaw the poll tax.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Also, Rabbie, I have read in a couple places that those who are voluntarily committed still have the right to vote in the UK; only the involuntarily committed do not. Has that changed, then?

 

[Minty]

You have it round the wrong way - The tax was based on the number of adult people in the house, not their voting rights.

As it happened if they decided not to put themselves on the electoral register (to try and avoid the tax) then they lost their right to vote. (This is a very simplified version... but you get the idea)

 

[Frothingslosh]

"If you don't pay this tax, you don't get to vote."

That's a poll tax, no matter how you disguise it.

 

[Minty]

The same rules still apply now - if you don't sign up for the Electoral register you can't vote, and it's illegal to misrepresent who lives in the house.
They just don't base a specific tax on you living there. However there is a local tax based on the value of your house.

 

[dan-cat]

Who is the mug?

Col

It's a very subordinate lifestyle. I don't think it would have suited you.

 

[Frothingslosh]

The same rules still apply now - if you don't sign up for the Electoral register you can't vote, and it's illegal to misrepresent who lives in the house.
They just don't base a specific tax on you living there. However there is a local tax based on the value of your house.

And honestly, I still see that as an indirect property tax. It screams 'you can't vote unless you own property, regardless of whether or not you are otherwise a citizen'. I know it is part of a long battle between the gentry and the commons, but that doesn't mean it's RIGHT.

Also, I meant to reply to this directly:

Why should those who do not contribute have a say in how the money is spent?

Are those citizens receiving help from the government still citizens, or are they not? If they ARE still citizens, then as far as I can see in your laws, they have the same rights as any other commoners.

You object to them having a say in the running of the country because they are receiving assistance, almost certainly because you feel they will vote in their own best interests, but do you not do the same?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The UK still denies the vote in parliamentary elections to those who are insane, members of the House of Lords and those in prison with a sentence of longer than one year.

Hmmm.... this speaks highly of the members of the House of Lords - being compared as on equal footing with non-trivial criminals (sentences > 1 year) and people who are insane. But then again, ... in the USA, we make equally disparaging remarks regarding our elected representatives. Maybe I understand after all.

 

[Alc]

"If you don't pay this tax, you don't get to vote."

Where's this quote taken from? I remember the UK poll tax and the whole pro and con argument, riots, etc. but I don't remember it having anything to do with voting.

 

[Frothingslosh]

A poll tax is, by definition, a tax you pay in order to be allowed to vote. It can be either direct ("Pay $250 here, get your ballot"), kind of direct ("Pay $250 voter registration, you'll be added to the list of eligible voters"), or indirect ("Only people bearing a certification of paid property tax are eligible to vote").

At least, that's the definition of a poll tax here in the states: a tax paid in order to be allowed to vote. ("Polls" referring to the actual voting)

Now you have me wondering if we've just hit the British English/American English divide again!

 

[Alc]

And honestly, I still see that as an indirect property tax. It screams 'you can't vote unless you own property, regardless of whether or not you are otherwise a citizen'. I know it is part of a long battle between the gentry and the commons, but that doesn't mean it's RIGHT.

Do you mean, literally, that if you don't own property you can't vote, or if you're homeless you can't vote? If the former you're mistaken, as I voted for years as a renter. If the latter, not to argue that it's right or wrong, but how would you track whether a homeless person has voted already or not? Without any form of ID, it would be very hard to keep track.

What system does the US use to track how the homeless vote? Must be a monumental task.