Alternate Energy

THis programme is back on- but he is revisiting all of the alternative power supplies (check the BBC website /bloom - i think)

gives the payback time /average costs and links to building these things yourself

its on Monday/tuesday - (BBC 2 anyway)


h
Yes I was wrong in my estimate of 20yrs payback in this country because according to that site you will never get your money back
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bloom/actions/solarpanels.shtml
 
That's only one form of solar - photovotaic (and I think you might - perhaps rightly - have ignored the possible associated increase in property resale value).

Is it also the case that solar water heating is a never-break-even proposition?
 
That's only one form of solar - photovotaic (and I think you might - perhaps rightly - have ignored the possible associated increase in property resale value).

Is it also the case that solar water heating is a never-break-even proposition?

Solar heating does not really break even unless you build your own
 
Solar heating does not really break even unless you build your own
The pipes that feed it do, as can the secondary heat exchanger needed and the tank that has to store the "heated" water as can the pump that has to circulate the water
 
That's only one form of solar - photovotaic (and I think you might - perhaps rightly - have ignored the possible associated increase in property resale value).
Not proven in this country
 
wind power
prices professionallly made one- however again home builds are at 1/10 of the cost so a system devivering 2000watts cost > £8500 to home build it costs roughly 850 at 850 its viable and payback is pretty quick at £8,500 its not payback at all

the selfbuild do involve tie - and i have indicated costs of materials
but have been reliabbly informed a .llong weekend and you can have built a wind turbine --

i would love to have the land to do this with


Max Power Excluding VAT Estimated Domestic Pricing Guide
Turbine Type
Rating (W) Price Grant Net Price Net per kW Inc. VAT Inc. per kW
Kestrel 600
600 £3,600 £0 £3,600 £6,000 £3,780 £6,300
Kestrel 1000
1,000 £4,500 £0 £4,500 £4,500 £4,725 £4,725
Skystream 1.9
1,900 £8,550 0 £8,550 £4,500 £8,978 £4,725
Iskra 5
5,000 £21,250 £2,500 £18,750 £3,750 £19,813 £3,963
Westwind 10
10,000 £35,000 £0 £35,000 £3,500 £36,750 £3,675
Gaia 11 11,000 £44,000 £2,500 £41,500 £3,750 £46,200 £4,200
Westwind 20
20,000 £60,000 £2,500 £57,500 £2,875 £60,500 £3,025
Vestas V27
225,000 £281,250 £0 £281,250 £1,250 £295,313 £1,313
Vestas V39
500,000 £550,000 £0 £550,000 £1,100 £577,500 £1,155
 
On way of 'solving' this inbalance in supply and demand is in storing energy....

I.e.
People have speculated about using the thermal vents in Iceland to generate green energy. Offcourse not many people live there, thus the energy requirement of this country is quite low (compared to some other industrial countries). This energy would then be used to generete (i.e.) hydrogen (spelling?) which can be transported and kept (relatively?) safely. This Hydrogen would be created from (semi-)useless salt water (ocean)
Then burning the Hydrogen, producing water where and when needed.
1) you get power where it is needed
2) This same area would then also have a steady fresh? water supply independant of other sources. Offcourse this fresh water would be lacking any minerals and stuff... But you cannot get clearer water I think than from burning H to H2O
 
I was a little confused by those figures at first - particularly the price per kW figure - but I realise - that's the capital cost of generating power at a given capacity.

Taking the 1000w-rated model (because 1kW is easiest to work with) and assuming that it produces its rated capacity constantly, day in, day out (yeah, I know that's unrealistic)...

There are 876 hours in a year, so operating at 100% capacity, it will produce 876 kWh per year.

Mains electricity costs... what? 15p per kWh?
£4,500 / 0.15p = 30,000. £4,500 would buy you 30,000 kWh - the machine will therefore break even after the equivalent of 30,000 hours at full capacity... 30,000 / 876 = 34 years.

Of course that's inappropriately assuming a constant future cost of mains electricity, but still, those are quite long numbers, and the device may in reality operate at much lower efficiency.

Someone please check my maths - I didn't expect it to be quite that bad...
 
your are forgetting the buy back and grants

grants at £2,500
buy backs licneses at x
 
average use per house (3 bed) 2 adults 2 childen
= 4.2 k/watts


a 2 kw kit costs
£1795.00 no grant (from a different site) - but if you look at the real self build then the costs are even lower around £200 per wind turbine lower output at around .75 kw

These are diy kits so costs are very cheap compared to a professional build

so this will product roughly 50% of your energy

which you sell back to the power board at X
it has been worked out it takes about 5-7 years to payback on this basis

land/wind being avaiable
 
4.2 at .1 per unit works out at £420 per year /12 = £35 per month (sounds about right)
if you wind generate at 2 PA then £200

saving £200

cost £1795 /200 = 7-8 years - however you get buy backs so pay back is quicker due to CO2 reduction

but you need land and wind
 
4.2 at .1 per unit works out at £420 per year /12 = £35 per month (sounds about right)
if you wind generate at 2 PA then £200

saving £200

cost £1795 /200 = 7-8 years - however you get buy backs so pay back is quicker due to CO2 reduction

but you need land and wind
You also need planning permission
 
That, I suspect, is the major stumbling block for many potential customers - either they're daunted by attempting to obtain planning permission, or they wouldn't get it anyway.

If the market for home wind power was able to grow a bit faster, the unit price would come down.
 
average use per house (3 bed) 2 adults 2 childen
= 4.2 k/watts


a 2 kw kit costs
£1795.00 no grant (from a different site) - but if you look at the real self build then the costs are even lower around £200 per wind turbine lower output at around .75 kw

These are diy kits so costs are very cheap compared to a professional build

so this will product roughly 50% of your energy


land/wind being avaiable


The claims that these small generators are going to produce vast surpluses that can be sold back are so farcical it beggars belief, that's even before the costs of the stand by supply are taken into account
 
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That, I suspect, is the major stumbling block for many potential customers - either they're daunted by attempting to obtain planning permission, or they wouldn't get it anyway.

If the market for home wind power was able to grow a bit faster, the unit price would come down.
The price may well come down but the oucome remains the same as solar panels here, it's like pissing in the wind;)
 
I have often wondered if there were sufficient wind mills and solar panels to deliver all the current energy needs for the entire world then would there be some impact on climate etc.

In other words is wind and solar energy really cost free?

I guess like most things, the answer is NO. What bugs me about all this is governments (Aus particularly) who believe that by putting a tax on everything, the problem will go away!

They can tax coal/oil etc till the cows come home (and what idiot let them out anyway!) but it won't make a viable alternative appear from thin air.

They will HAVE to invest in research etc into making something that IS viable

(This spray concludes)
 
HAHAHA the increase in taxes is just incentive and also brings up the current energy costs for the consumer so it reaches parity with the alternative sources because everyone is so concerned about "payback" which is the most often used term in this entire thread.
We have been using alternative fuel for a while now and not just because it is "trendy" but because the unreliability of the grid and the depressed local economy. The local economy where we live has been depressed WAY before the current global crisis, our closest gas station closed two years back, local convenience store was about 6 months before that and the previous year the onlt restaurant in town went under. Sadly the next closest town to us had their restaurant close this past summer and they took away the ATM in our town which had replaced the bank and post office which closed five years back.

I guess like most things, the answer is NO. What bugs me about all this is governments (Aus particularly) who believe that by putting a tax on everything, the problem will go away!

They can tax coal/oil etc till the cows come home (and what idiot let them out anyway!) but it won't make a viable alternative appear from thin air.

They will HAVE to invest in research etc into making something that IS viable

(This spray concludes)
 
I was a little confused by those figures at first - particularly the price per kW figure - but I realise - that's the capital cost of generating power at a given capacity.

Taking the 1000w-rated model (because 1kW is easiest to work with) and assuming that it produces its rated capacity constantly, day in, day out (yeah, I know that's unrealistic)...

There are 876 hours in a year, so operating at 100% capacity, it will produce 876 kWh per year.

Mains electricity costs... what? 15p per kWh?
£4,500 / 0.15p = 30,000. £4,500 would buy you 30,000 kWh - the machine will therefore break even after the equivalent of 30,000 hours at full capacity... 30,000 / 876 = 34 years.

Of course that's inappropriately assuming a constant future cost of mains electricity, but still, those are quite long numbers, and the device may in reality operate at much lower efficiency.

Someone please check my maths - I didn't expect it to be quite that bad...
There are actually 8760 hours in a year so you would generate 10 times as much as you say thus bringing the break even point closer.
 
has this changed the way you use your eletricity ?
has it saved you any money ?
 
There are actually 8760 hours in a year so you would generate 10 times as much as you say thus bringing the break even point closer.

Oops. Can't believe I overlooked such an obvious mistake...
 

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