A Special Thanks to all vets
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Joe8915
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I thought this was interesting. This will be my last comment
Iraq Less Violent than Washington, D.C.
Despite media coverage purporting to show that escalating violence in Iraq has the country spiraling out of control, civilian death statistics complied by Rep. Steve King, R-IA, indicate that Iraq actually has a lower civilian violent death rate than Washington, D.C.
Appearing with Westwood One radio host Monica Crowley on Saturday, King said that the incessantly negative coverage of the Iraq war prompted him to research the actual death numbers.
"I began to ask myself the question, if you were a civilian in Iraq, how could you tolerate that level of violence," he said. "What really is the level of violence?"
Using Pentagon statistics cross-checked with independent research, King said he came up with an annualized Iraqi civilian death rate of 27.51 per 100,000.
Other American cities with higher violent civilian death rates than Iraq include:
• Detroit - 41.8 per 100,000
• Baltimore - 37.7 per 100,000
• Atlanta - 34.9 per 100,000
• St. Louis - 31.4 per 100,000
The American city with the highest civilian death rate was New Orleans before Katrina - with a staggering 53.1 deaths per 100,000 - almost twice the death rate in Iraq.
Iraq Less Violent than Washington, D.C.
Despite media coverage purporting to show that escalating violence in Iraq has the country spiraling out of control, civilian death statistics complied by Rep. Steve King, R-IA, indicate that Iraq actually has a lower civilian violent death rate than Washington, D.C.
Appearing with Westwood One radio host Monica Crowley on Saturday, King said that the incessantly negative coverage of the Iraq war prompted him to research the actual death numbers.
"I began to ask myself the question, if you were a civilian in Iraq, how could you tolerate that level of violence," he said. "What really is the level of violence?"
Using Pentagon statistics cross-checked with independent research, King said he came up with an annualized Iraqi civilian death rate of 27.51 per 100,000.
Other American cities with higher violent civilian death rates than Iraq include:
• Detroit - 41.8 per 100,000
• Baltimore - 37.7 per 100,000
• Atlanta - 34.9 per 100,000
• St. Louis - 31.4 per 100,000
The American city with the highest civilian death rate was New Orleans before Katrina - with a staggering 53.1 deaths per 100,000 - almost twice the death rate in Iraq.
ColinEssex
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ColinEssex
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Was a nice thread till it was hijacked..
all I did was ask if it was a special Vietnam day, if so when will there be a special Iraq day and what criteria is needed to qualify for a memorial day in the USA.
Col
Joe .
Its great that you want to show respect to your fallen sons and daughter.
and you will find that most people also wish to pay there respects to theses soldiers/saliors/airforcemen and women
However , The US has not really made itself universally loved or liked, this is not a pop at the soldieres etc but more at the polictical nature and atittude (typo) some of the foreign policies have left a lot to be desired - and the bully boy antics does not go down well ..
Some americans (not all and this is my view only) seem to think that it is there god given right to push there way through and what they want is more important than any one else - a case in point
a new banker for the world bank organisation, the old banker seems to think he did nothing wrong, promoting his girlfriend etc , and when other countires moan and complained about this - tried to bluff it out , supported by the US govement, now if this had been reversed and the US govement want x out then its a differnet senario
what it comes down to in the end is the US has double standards - It's laws apply to everyone whereever they are, but the laws of another country have no meaning ..
its respect at the end of the day if the US respected others then others would respect the US
Respect like trust is never given always has to be earnt -
US double standards land of the free but it is not allowing due legal process for the so call terrorism it has held. -
It can all anyone a terrorist and lock them up with no review or hard evidense
gagging orders have been put on newspapers, and on films
this is not the land of the free (althought he same could be said about the UK , difference is most brits know it , thats why there will be a change of goverment in the next election.
g
Its great that you want to show respect to your fallen sons and daughter.
and you will find that most people also wish to pay there respects to theses soldiers/saliors/airforcemen and women
However , The US has not really made itself universally loved or liked, this is not a pop at the soldieres etc but more at the polictical nature and atittude (typo) some of the foreign policies have left a lot to be desired - and the bully boy antics does not go down well ..
Some americans (not all and this is my view only) seem to think that it is there god given right to push there way through and what they want is more important than any one else - a case in point
a new banker for the world bank organisation, the old banker seems to think he did nothing wrong, promoting his girlfriend etc , and when other countires moan and complained about this - tried to bluff it out , supported by the US govement, now if this had been reversed and the US govement want x out then its a differnet senario
what it comes down to in the end is the US has double standards - It's laws apply to everyone whereever they are, but the laws of another country have no meaning ..
its respect at the end of the day if the US respected others then others would respect the US
Respect like trust is never given always has to be earnt -
US double standards land of the free but it is not allowing due legal process for the so call terrorism it has held. -
It can all anyone a terrorist and lock them up with no review or hard evidense
gagging orders have been put on newspapers, and on films
this is not the land of the free (althought he same could be said about the UK , difference is most brits know it , thats why there will be a change of goverment in the next election.
g
rainman89
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You make it seem like us regular americans have any say in what is done when it comes to wars. and u will say "but you elect the people that do this" but.... technically we dont. the people in the electoral college( think that is what its called) do that.
All joe wanted to do is say thanks to others on this board that may have served and lost someone close to them. you guys turned it into bashing american politics. you wont call it bashing. but thats what it is.
and no col. its not "war" specific.there wont be one for iraq. its a memoriam to ALL soldiers who fought.
Joe8915
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GaryPanic, who ever is our next president no matter if Rep or Dem, I will support him/her to the end. Just because HE/SHE is our Commander in Chief of the United States, and I will stand beside her or him at any given cause.
God Bless America
God Bless America
Ray
It may be bashing americans - but I was not bashing the soldiers who gave their lives .
I was also trying to explain why some of the comments seem a bit harsh
as I pointed out this was a personal view and not to be taken as a global view
There will always be a difference in cultures- even though we have a common langauge.
THere seems to be glorifcation of War where there really should be seem as a tragic breakdown in dipolmancy (all wars)
g
It may be bashing americans - but I was not bashing the soldiers who gave their lives .
I was also trying to explain why some of the comments seem a bit harsh
as I pointed out this was a personal view and not to be taken as a global view
There will always be a difference in cultures- even though we have a common langauge.
THere seems to be glorifcation of War where there really should be seem as a tragic breakdown in dipolmancy (all wars)
g
ColinEssex
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Thats exactly the blind loyalty thats made the USA what it is today.
God help you, because if the USA fights with Iran - Iraq will seem like a breeze.
Just don't vote in a warmongering gunslinger who is meglamanic and wants to rule the world and destroy it
Col
Joe - this does actual highlight what some treads have talk about
and I have commented on my comments on this were :
where we UK/Euorpe look at our leaders prime minsters- presidents etc as public servants to do the will of the people
Americans seem to put the president on a pedalstool almost as a demi-god and follow blindly - knowing now that Nixon was not the most honest person it would be madness to say lets follow him he's our leader
If the Prime Minster of UK took a stance (and they have) that I object to I will not support it and will do everything within the law to stop it, If the Prime Minster went too far then i and others would stand against this , this has been done recently in the UK
with the Poll Tax. it brought down Margaret Thatcher - open disobenticancy and also people refused to pay it
I do like most americans as much as I do like most Brits , Germans,Dutch - its the person not the country they come from that is important
Joe8915
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Wow, I guess I really started something here. It's hard for me to keep my mouth shut. But I guess I should say I might not agree with the president, but I will support him. I guess that's hard to understand, but that is the way I was brought up. Maybe Nixon was not honest, but I supported him, just because he was our leader. If you can't support your leader, who our you going to support. The one your fighting against, or just choose to run. I mean its your own decision you are the one that is going to live with it. I don't mean that is bad, just because ITS the way you think and thats ok with me.
Joe - thats fine
as I mentioned different culture
you have been brought up to trust your polictians -which is great when they are doing a good job and are relatively honest Bush is honest-(stupid, but as honest as any polictian can be) Clinton - was an arse - but was more respected
However in the UK/Europe we have been brought up that most policitans are dishonest(no more or less so than any polictian anywhere) and as such we try to find out what the motives are
if you had a look at the Italians - you would laugh - it is so corrupt despite the best intentions of most of the polictians - double even triple payments for all sorts of things
because we are a collective (europe) of differnet nations it is hard for one nation to cover up these sort of things whereas stateside 1 federal goverment slightly easier
don't take this as a dig at the US - its just pointing out a differnece from my side of the fence , you could equally argue,point out from your point of view against the short falls of UK/Europe and being removed from this might have a interesting view point and insight that we european cannot see from being to close to be objective
We deviate from the core of this subject which is to remember the fallen sons and daughters -
If i seem to have a pop at the Govemrent of the US then I am, but never at individuals - unless I mention them
as I state - I fully support the soldiers on the field - but not the polictics that got them there - this goes for the UK Troops as well as the other nations
again this is a personal view and not to be taken as a genralisation
g
as I mentioned different culture
you have been brought up to trust your polictians -which is great when they are doing a good job and are relatively honest Bush is honest-(stupid, but as honest as any polictian can be) Clinton - was an arse - but was more respected
However in the UK/Europe we have been brought up that most policitans are dishonest(no more or less so than any polictian anywhere) and as such we try to find out what the motives are
if you had a look at the Italians - you would laugh - it is so corrupt despite the best intentions of most of the polictians - double even triple payments for all sorts of things
because we are a collective (europe) of differnet nations it is hard for one nation to cover up these sort of things whereas stateside 1 federal goverment slightly easier
don't take this as a dig at the US - its just pointing out a differnece from my side of the fence , you could equally argue,point out from your point of view against the short falls of UK/Europe and being removed from this might have a interesting view point and insight that we european cannot see from being to close to be objective
We deviate from the core of this subject which is to remember the fallen sons and daughters -
If i seem to have a pop at the Govemrent of the US then I am, but never at individuals - unless I mention them
as I state - I fully support the soldiers on the field - but not the polictics that got them there - this goes for the UK Troops as well as the other nations
again this is a personal view and not to be taken as a genralisation
g
Bodisathva
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I have a friend (and several uncles) who feel the same way. Not surprisingly, you all share one common trait (no offense)...military service. Militarily speaking, you are not trained to question authority, you follow orders. Basic Training is designed to take away all sense of self and individuality so that you are much easier to assimilate into the military mindset. This works well for training soldiers, but it takes away the sense of self determination that must be used to control the military machine.
There's nothing wrong with questioning authority and we're not talking about outright rebellion. By the same token, you are well within your rights to merely accept the decisions that are made for you by someone else... but don't be surprised when the number of decisions they make for you begins to increase.
Bodisathva.
Well put and a lot more polite than I could of put this.
speaking as an ex solider (I reached the dizzie heights of Private)
We were taught that if you thought an order was illegal - then don' t do it
although you may get told off (you could not be charged for it) now this was done on the basis - were you about to break the law, did the situation warant it. etc
if you were order to break the law then you could be prosocuted as could the senior officer -
so blind obediance was not encouraged -however nor was arguing every order -
also even as a private you could take control of a situtation and then be relieved when someone higher ranked than you took over
I can accross a car accident and stepped in did my First aid bit, then a nurse came and help we had a 5 second discussion - she knew more than me - so I assisted her .
Well put and a lot more polite than I could of put this.
speaking as an ex solider (I reached the dizzie heights of Private)
We were taught that if you thought an order was illegal - then don' t do it
although you may get told off (you could not be charged for it) now this was done on the basis - were you about to break the law, did the situation warant it. etc
if you were order to break the law then you could be prosocuted as could the senior officer -
so blind obediance was not encouraged -however nor was arguing every order -
also even as a private you could take control of a situtation and then be relieved when someone higher ranked than you took over
I can accross a car accident and stepped in did my First aid bit, then a nurse came and help we had a 5 second discussion - she knew more than me - so I assisted her .
ColinEssex
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It's called brainwashing.
Joe, how can you disagree with a presidents policy / action yet also support him in that action?
As Gary said, we had street riots - the lot, over the poll tax Thatcher wanted to bring in. People power won, she was chucked out of power and poll tax was abolished.
Politicians are there to do good for the UK and the people - they're not gods like you treat your lunatic dictator.
Col
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