Any Americans want to sign this? (3 Viewers)

dkinley

Access Hack by Choice
Local time
Today, 12:06
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,016
But I don't want unity at the expense of truth.

lol ...

Who really does? Thing is, only a few people know the truth and no matter who's mouth it comes out of everyone will hear something different unless it comes with graphs and pie charts. Then we don't want to hear the truth - look what happened to Ross. =]

-dK
 

dkinley

Access Hack by Choice
Local time
Today, 12:06
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,016
No, the government wanted me to work so they built me a road. I had to work so they could tax me and give my money to the people that won't work.

-dK
 

Alisa

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 11:06
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
1,931
No, the government wanted me to work so they built me a road. I had to work so they could tax me and give my money to the people that won't work.

-dK


Buying things "in bulk" as a country, things like roads, water treatment, fire services, police services, schools, etc. is not bailing anyone out. It is just more efficient to do things that way sometimes. Buying health INSURANCE in bulk is no different than any of those other services. Note, INSURANCE not CARE. The problem with health care is that it has become too expensive for people to afford it. The reason it is too expensive is because we are purchasing it in the most inefficient way possible - individually from companies who's purpose in life is to drain profits from the health care dollar.

I am all for personal responsibility. Both for individuals AND corporations. But dragging the righteousness of personal responsibility into the health care debate only distracts from the issue.
 

Alisa

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 11:06
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
1,931
lol ...

Who really does? Thing is, only a few people know the truth and no matter who's mouth it comes out of everyone will hear something different unless it comes with graphs and pie charts. Then we don't want to hear the truth - look what happened to Ross. =]

-dK

No, the truth is the truth.
Iraq did not have WMD. That is a truthful statement. It is not subjective.

I think one of our basic problems in this country is that we have somehow come to percieve the truth as something that IS subjective when it is not. Sometimes facts are just facts.
 

dkinley

Access Hack by Choice
Local time
Today, 12:06
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,016
Iraq did not have WMD.

Agreed if you finish the sentence with "when we got there and looked for them." Everyone know's he had them, the US sold them to him to fight Iran with. The major democratic heads certainly swore he had them; I don't think they would get on TV and lie to me, too.

The truth comes to a matter of when. That doesn't make it subjective, it makes it relative. The subjective portion is 'what was Iraq going to do with them?' and 'what did Iraq do with them?'

Sometimes fact are facts; but I think this is a fact we agree to disagree with. I also think that we would agree on the subjective truth when it is broadcasted. Modern media has reduced the news to sound bytes without a 'real journalist' saying "Hold on there, buster - where is your fact to back up your claim?" because that doesn't make for good viewing.

Check out the movie "Outfoxed"; I couldn't recommend a better movie to demonstrate it because it slams all media outlets not matter what their tag line says.

-dK
 

Alisa

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 11:06
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
1,931
Agreed if you finish the sentence with "when we got there and looked for them." Everyone know's he had them, the US sold them to him to fight Iran with. The major democratic heads certainly swore he had them; I don't think they would get on TV and lie to me, too.

The truth comes to a matter of when. That doesn't make it subjective, it makes it relative. The subjective portion is 'what was Iraq going to do with them?' and 'what did Iraq do with them?'

Sometimes fact are facts; but I think this is a fact we agree to disagree with. I also think that we would agree on the subjective truth when it is broadcasted. Modern media has reduced the news to sound bytes without a 'real journalist' saying "Hold on there, buster - where is your fact to back up your claim?" because that doesn't make for good viewing.

Check out the movie "Outfoxed"; I couldn't recommend a better movie to demonstrate it because it slams all media outlets not matter what their tag line says.

-dK

We knew they didn't have them before we invaded. There is nothing subjective about it - the inspections were working, the inspectors had found no evidence of WMD. Why were the inspections halted? Other than the fact that Bush wanted to go to war.

Outfoxed was a great movie, although depressing.
 

Banana

split with a cherry atop.
Local time
Today, 10:06
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
6,318
Buying things "in bulk" as a country, things like roads, water treatment, fire services, police services, schools, etc. is not bailing anyone out. It is just more efficient to do things that way sometimes.

There is a problem with that...

It can be argued that taxation is just legalized thievery. We wag our finger at the mob who run a protection racket in its neighborhood but approve of the taxman taking away from a worker's hard-earned savings?

And before you whip out that "But it was voted by a majority of people.", I reply, "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner." Majority doesn't make right any more than might does. Only the individual has the moral right to spend the gains as they see fit and nobody else.

National defense and court system is only two exception I can think offhand that does necessitate taxation because of problem with "free ridership". As for the rest, be it roads, utilities, health care, etc., I say privatize it. Let them innovate new ways to make more efficient uses. In fact, handing it over to government is even worse than outright anarchy.

Buying health INSURANCE in bulk is no different than any of those other services. Note, INSURANCE not CARE. The problem with health care is that it has become too expensive for people to afford it. The reason it is too expensive is because we are purchasing it in the most inefficient way possible - individually from companies who's purpose in life is to drain profits from the health care dollar.

And I again disagree; handing it over to government is the worse thing we can inflict on citizens because they are horribly inefficient and inept at doing anything. More importantly, once it's under a committee, a legislative house, or an agency control, you can rest guaranteed that there *will* be corruption. It's just human nature. The fiasco we are in right now has been bought about by unholy alliance of Government & Big Business colluding to bilk the most out of average Joe Sixpack. (The fact that we have lobbyists is sufficient proof that the Government are quite comfy in the bed with Big Business)

Free market works not only because they force people to put up their wealth at risk in order to make money (Note that the recent bailouts is proof that the risk is absent) so everyone benefits from wealth made available for reinvesting but also because the invisible hand can't be bribed, corrupted, blackmailed, or coerced into doing something.

So, I do not think government is the answer for healthcare, for utilities, for nondefense or non-legal services. It's only a pity that we never truly had a free market and a government that actually minded its darned business for so long time (I'd venture to guess not since prior to Civil War... quite a long time).
 

Alisa

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 11:06
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
1,931
Do you agree that what we have right now is not working?
 

Banana

split with a cherry atop.
Local time
Today, 10:06
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
6,318
Yes. [insert fluff to satisfy the ten-character limit]
 

Banana

split with a cherry atop.
Local time
Today, 10:06
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
6,318
A patchwork chimera of the worst kind.

There are choices available but without actual competition. There are regulations that only throw up barriers to innovation and keep newcomers out. There are no demand-supply curve to derive because it is not between the consumer and provider.

Of course, this may vary from industry to industry but in industries where it really matters (e.g. banking and healthcare for example), it's really bad.
 

Alisa

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 11:06
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
1,931
A patchwork chimera of the worst kind.

There are choices available but without actual competition. There are regulations that only throw up barriers to innovation and keep newcomers out. There are no demand-supply curve to derive because it is not between the consumer and provider.

Of course, this may vary from industry to industry but in industries where it really matters (e.g. banking and healthcare for example), it's really bad.

Have you looked at this?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
 

Banana

split with a cherry atop.
Local time
Today, 10:06
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
6,318

Cool link; thanks for sharing.

There's a chance that the grass is just greener on the other side; I think the criticism of NHS in UK already has been noted and worked on.

Finally, I do not think it's necessary to require a national mandate; I've mentioned this before, but I think that by allowing smaller units of government more discretion in how to manage the healthcare, we get to place the healthcare system in realm of free market competition and thus see what work better and fine tune for different localities which will obviously have different needs. I do not think there is need to involve big government, even with promises of autonomy as they do in some countries such as UK and Canada.

I also think I threw out a link in another thread about the success of lodge doctors and how it was "fixed" by government.
 

dkinley

Access Hack by Choice
Local time
Today, 12:06
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,016
The point is ... I am a relatively healthy person. I am now being told what I must get and who must give it to me. No choice - taken directly out of the money I earn. I don't need half the crap they wanna sell me so why would I purchase it? According to my last audit, I have saved over ... well, let's say a ton of money in the last 15 years because I paid as I went. And yes, there were a couple of surgeries in there to boot. It was MY choice. I have taken and looked out for my health with diet and excercise and paid attention to my gene pool. The same with all of those numbers of people who are not insured because they don't need it or want it.

So now the government wants to take MY money to help lower someone else's premium. Again, I don't mind helping someone when they are down, but I am 100% against handouts on a monthly basis.

If I was running for office my health care plan would be business as usual with a bit of reform and stick a tax on sugar and condensed carbohydrate foods so high that it would pay for everyone ailing from a lifetime of ingesting them. Of course, you don't read about that, it's the best kept secret in the country.

-dK
 

Banana

split with a cherry atop.
Local time
Today, 10:06
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
6,318
If I was running for office my health care plan would be business as usual with a bit of reform and stick a tax on sugar and condensed carbohydrate foods so high that it would pay for everyone ailing from a lifetime of ingesting them. Of course, you don't read about that, it's the best kept secret in the country.

Erm, just to point out that 1) there's a embargo against Cuba's cane sugar, 2) corn is heavily subsidized, 3) consequently, everything comes in High Fructose Corn Syrup. So we're actually financing our malnutrition, if quite removed.

Courtesy of Mr. Government & Mrs. Big Business! They have your back!
 

Joe8915

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 11:06
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
820
Joe, We are already up to 130 posts, why give up now? I think you must have missed American history class. Criticizing the government is the most patriotic thing you can do. I guess this is a fundamental difference in our views. However, I am quite sure that history is on my side on this one. I also beg to differ with your statement that our government is the best. By what measure is it the best?

130 posts, my god, you would think I don't have a life. If you like critcizing our government, thats your choice.

I have been around the World many times, and there is not one other country that I would even think to live in, except for the US. But if you think we are not best. Then why are you still here?

Now by what measure, this will blow your mind. But to me everything works here in America. Did you know that people live longer, fuller lives in America. If we are soooo bad, then why so many people are coming here to live. To me thats why we are the best.

I guess I could go on and on, but whats the point if you don't think we are the best.

What I meant by visitng the Veterans Hosiptals, is that you would get the real story, you the story that no one likes to hear. I know some people don't like hearing the truth. Don't get me wrong there are some guys, I have spoken to and say we should not be there, but very few.

I know you worship the ground that Obama walks on. But I don't do that with McCain. What I get from you is that Obama, is this great savior. Even Biden says he not the right man to be choosen. But I am sure you have excuse for that statement as well.

Well thats my vent for now. Damn 130 posts. Are we nuts?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom