Gun laws do they work (2 Viewers)

[Vassago]

I have heard it said (and I totally believe it) that a gun in the home is far more likely to be involved in an accidental shooting than in legitimate self defense.

Hearing it said without facts is rather silly. There are millions of registered legal gun owners in the US. There aren't accidental shootings every day in my city, but there are shootings often. Most shootings have to be intentional.

That's not to say that a criminal could miss it's target and hit someone else on accident. That's not the same as what was quoted above though. That still counts as a criminal act, not really an accidental shooting.

In the end, the gun is still just a tool. I know it's been said again and again. Guns don't kill people, people do.

...or rather...

 

[Libre]

Hearing it said without facts is rather silly. There are millions of registered legal gun owners in the US. There aren't accidental shootings every day in my city, but there are shootings often. Most shootings have to be intentional.

That's not to say that a criminal could miss it's target and hit someone else on accident. That's not the same as what was quoted above though. That still counts as a criminal act, not really an accidental shooting.

In the end, the gun is still just a tool. I know it's been said again and again. Guns don't kill people, people do.

...or rather...

I avoided the mention of specific "facts" and statistics because as soon as you quote a so-called fact or mention a statistic, right away somebody has their own facts to contradict your facts and/or they will question your statistics. See? So I avoided this treatment and I went with the simple FACT that I've heard the statement and I believe it, rather than overreaching and overstating my case. I heard a statement, it sounds reasonable, and I believe it.
Now, Vassago, if it's facts and support for arguments that you want, you might refrain from loosely phrased statements such as
"There aren't accidental shootings every day in my city, but there are shootings often."
What is "often"?
Exactly what proportion of shootings are accidental in your city?
Please - just the facts.
I disagree that stating a belief without accompanying facts is silly.

 

[Lightwave]

The way I see it (and it is only my opinion it is not factual)

If you are in environment where you do not trust people. As much as possible you want to put things in your favour. Given that in most cases a criminal or a discontented individual will attack when you least expect. You owning a weapon won't help much cos say you'll be out of bullets - or your having a BBQ at the moment or say you're cutting the lawn and maybe it's locked in your cupboard or you were at college and hey you don't have your semi automatic on you just at the moment.

Allowing free access to guns increases the chances that these guys will come at you well armed. It doesn't increase the chances that you will be armed when he comes at you UNLESS you wear a gun all the time.

Does everyone in America really want to go back to wearing guns everywhere?

Not sure about that Guns don't kill people line..

Not only do guns kill people you can kill a lot more people a lot more quickly from a distance.
It's kind of why they were invented.

 

[Adam Caramon]

In the end, the gun is still just a tool. I know it's been said again and again. Guns don't kill people, people do.

A tool that is specifically designed to maim and kill. My father is a hunter, has owned several different rifles and other weapons for hunting. Even he thinks that guns have gotten out of control.

My experience with "gun people" has been mostly negative, and I am sure that has shaded my opinion. But why does it seem that most gun people are just salivating at an opportunity to kill another human being? They almost want a tragedy to occur just so they have an opportunity to use their gun.

And, if a gun is just a tool, is a grenade also just a tool? If you live in a neighborhood where gangs are prevalent, there is the possibility that you could be attacked by 20, 30, maybe 50 or more individuals. Shouldn't you have the right as a law-abiding American to defend yourself & your family with a grenade?

If a grenade seems ridiculous to you, what exactly is the cut off? Pistols only? Assault rifles? Heavy artillery?

 

[Libre]

How about a B2 bomber with a full payload of nukes?
After all it's just a tool.
Bombers don't kill people, people kill people.

 

[Dick7Access]

And, if a gun is just a tool, is a grenade also just a tool? If you live in a neighborhood where gangs are prevalent, there is the possibility that you could be attacked by 20, 30, maybe 50 or more individuals. Shouldn't you have the right as a law-abiding American to defend yourself & your family with a grenade?

If a grenade seems ridiculous to you, what exactly is the cut off? Pistols only? Assault rifles? Heavy artillery?[/QUOTE]

Protecting my family, no cut off! anything goes!

 

[John Big Booty]

...
Protecting my family, no cut off! anything goes!

By that logic Libre's suggestion of a B2 with Nukes is OK by you. Never mind that in protecting his family he has not only eliminated the threat to his family by also the better part of the neighbourhood as well

Personally I'd go with;

to protect my family

 

[Dick7Access]

Come on John, you very well know what I meant. You only use the force necessary. If that is a nuke, against a hostile nation then so be it. The problem is not usually what force but who determines what a hostile nation is??? My two neighbors are at odds with each other, because his dog went into the other neighbors corral and stamped her horses. He told her that if her horses killed his dog, he would kill her horses. Doesn’t make sense to me. If his dog comes on my property and threatens my famiy I guess we are going to be at odds also, but it would take a nuke, just a .22.

 

[Lightwave]

Ok I get the point we should be allowed to arm ourselves but....

Has anyone read

Animal Farm

Lord of the flies

We are all (unfortunately) barbarians.

Honestly we are the problem you and me.

We'll just have a fight and use whatever we have to hand.

All of us only have a loose grip on reality and our perpetrators believe they are as in the right as much as we are.

The ultimate fallacy is that you as an individual speak from a position of authority.
Not a problem when you are unarmed big problem when you have a nuke.

 

[John Big Booty]

Dick I was merely taking your statement; "Protecting my family, no cut off! anything goes!", to it's logical, if not ridiculous conclusion

The prevalence of guns in our culture means that rather than being the weapon of last resort, they become the weapon of first choice. This is particularly evident in the number of Police shootings (here in Aust.) of unarmed offenders, often with underlying mental health issues.

This is not just an indictment of our Police forces but also of our Mental Health services. The unfortunate fact is that successive Governments have made deep cuts to the Mental Health services and the people that they should be caring for are turned away and become a policing problem. The Police poorly trained to deal with these people then get worked into a position where they feel their only option is deadly force

 

[John Big Booty]

...

We'll just have a fight and use whatever we have to hand.

...

Current gun laws in Australia, dictate that;

• Only licensed gun owners can own gun (makes sense)
• The number and type are also strictly controlled
• Guns must be secured in locked gun lockers (a safe essentially)
• The action, and ammunition must be stored in separate cabinets away from the gun cabinet.

This means that there is quiet a process involved in bringing all the components together, and should therefore reduce the heat of the moment type shootings.

...and before anyone starts bleating about, this impacting, their ability to protect their family. I'd like to know how often they have been in a position in which they have had to use deadly force to protect their loved ones. I contend that you are in far more danger every time you jump in your car.

 

[Vassago]

And what if we need to defend ourselves against another threat? What if it actually IS a massive internal threat with riots? That's not very far-fetched in my country with the current state of politics. In the end, I have a right to defend myself against all enemies foreign and domestic, and if I want to invoke that right, then I may.

 

[John Big Booty]

Join the military service of your choice or their reserve counter part, that is their function after all.

 

[Libre]

And what if we need to defend ourselves against another threat? What if it actually IS a massive internal threat with riots? That's not very far-fetched in my country with the current state of politics. In the end, I have a right to defend myself against all enemies foreign and domestic, and if I want to invoke that right, then I may.

Hell, there could be an alien invasion or a zombie apocalypse.
Giant mutant jellyfish could attack from the ocean.
Almost anything you can think of COULD happen.
But do we take serious action on the basis of possible, but highly improbable, scenarios? Do you have a lightening rod, by any chance? Do you live in a fireproof home? Is it protected from radon, CO, gamma radiation, and meteor strikes? Do you carry a first-aid kit with you?
Or, could it be that you just want your gun?
The fact is, and I am NOT going to bother to look it up, your home is billions of times more likely to be struck by lightening OR be in a fire, than your country to be overrun with riots. And if it is, just do yourself a favor and stay inside. You'll be safe there once you get that lightning rod.

 

[John Big Booty]

...or better still your local Police force that's what they get paid to do.

Civilians by very definition are untrained to perform these functions.

 

[Galaxiom]

There is a world of difference between owning a gun and using it effectively for self defence. Even someone who can hit a target may not be able to perform under pressure. Moreover they could well panic kill someone unintentionally.

Most intruders are not trying to kill, just take your stuff and the best defence is to cooperate. Pulling a gun is going to escalate the situation very rapidly. The offender is probably better prepared to use their weapon and has more to lose.

In the situation at the movie last week I wonder how many people would be prepared to use a gun to try and stop the offender even if they had one on them. Would you choose to draw his attention to yourself by taking a shot at him? I know I certainly would not appreciate someone next to me doing that if I found myself in that situation.

Moreover the offender had bullet proof clothing and a bigger gun than anything one could conceal. I would not fancy taking on an assault rifle with a pistol.

 

[John Big Booty]

Here's some statistic that show that you are more likely to be killed by someone you know that a stranger, in fact strangers were involved in only 14% of all homicides.

and for Australia

Not pretty reading on either count.

 

[John Big Booty]

There is a world of difference between owning a gun and using it effectively for self defence. Even someone who can hit a target may not be able to perform under pressure. Moreover they could well panic kill someone unintentionally.

Most intruders are not trying to kill, just take your stuff and the best defence is to cooperate. Pulling a gun is going to escalate the situation very rapidly. The offender is probably better prepared to use their weapon and has more to lose.

In the situation at the movie last week I wonder how many people would be prepared to use a gun to try and stop the offender even if they had one on them. Would you choose to draw his attention to yourself by taking a shot at him? I know I certainly would not appreciate someone next to me doing that if I found myself in that situation.

Moreover the offender had bullet proof clothing and a bigger gun than anything one could conceal. I would not fancy taking on an assault rifle with a pistol.

Also consider the PTS that afflicts many returned veterans, and ask yourself if you are prepared for the unintended consequence of your actions should you ever choose to use a weapon in anger.

 

[Dick7Access]

I stand corercted. Anything goes if it is needed.

 

[Vassago]

And what about when it's the military, government, or police you have to protect yourself from? You say it's farfetched but that's exactly what has been happening around the world and as our government becomes more divided, so shall the people.