Has NASA found (potentially) extraterrestrial life? (2 Viewers)

[Galaxiom]

What I have said is I think the basic story is correct.

Which parts of the basic story are correct?

One thing I wondered is why a guy who could walk across water and bring the dead back to life didn't just float away when they tried to capture him. Or make the nails bend when they tried to drive them through him.

And when he brought himself back to life why did he leave the holes insead of healing the wounds?

The whole story is inane and could only be believed by those who completely suspend any consideration of their own credulity.

 

[Galaxiom]

I want to praise God because I love Him......

An excellent essay on the nature of Christian love for God.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/relationship.html

 

[Adam Caramon]

(Please don't retort "You're fearmongering" this is what Christianity is)

That is probably why the % of Christians in America keeps falling through the years. I know what Christianity is. You're expected to spread your belief and "save" others. But in order to do that you'd have to ask them to turn a blind eye to logic and facts and accept a story. That's a large pill to swallow.

Also, it seems that line has struck a chord with you. I get the feeling that you don't think your religion uses fear in its proselytizing. I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise, but the simple later addition of Hell to the religion, which most historians attribute its description to Dante's Inferno should serve as an eye-opener.

I mean, Hell is this vaguely bad place, then an author comes along and writes all these gruesome details of what Hell is like, and suddenly priests start using his descriptons in their sermons.

That would be like if Stephen King wrote a book now about Hell, and in a few years his vision was the standard concept of Hell. That would have to make you wonder to the infallibility of the text & message.

Edit:

An excellent essay on the nature of Christian love for God.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/relationship.html

An interesting read. I saw a lot of parallels with my own thoughts, especially here:

How can this insidious condition be cured? The most important thing to keep in mind is that getting angry at the victim of an abusive relationship, demanding that they recognize the wrongs being done to them and "snap out of it", does no good. As maddening as it may seem to watch a fellow human being live in thrall to an abuser, even to turn against people who try to help, it must be remembered that it is not their fault; they are only doing what they believe they must do to survive...

 

[Kryst51]

That is probably why the % of Christians in America keeps falling through the years. I know what Christianity is. You're expected to spread your belief and "save" others. But in order to do that you'd have to ask them to turn a blind eye to logic and facts and accept a story. That's a large pill to swallow.

Also, it seems that line has struck a chord with you. I get the feeling that you don't think your religion uses fear in its proselytizing.

Well, God is certainly someone to fear, anyone who has all that power and might would be. And hell is certainly something to fear. But fear is not why I chose to serve Him, and not why most of the people I know chose to, nor is that what most of the people I talk to in person ask about when we talk about God. Most Christians recognize the sin in their lives, and know that God cannot be in the presence of sin, Christ provided a way for us to become sinless so that we can be in His presence. (Hence why He didn't have angels wisk Him away, which is similar to what Satan tempted Him to do in the desert.) So though God is to be feared, He is also a God who loves people so much that He provided a way to avoid the consequences of sin. It's God's love for me that Caused me to love Him. Their is the reality of Hell, but that is not the end of the story. And I have never used Hell as a persuasive measure, not in the way you mean it anyways. And yes it has struck a chord with me because I know it to be untrue. Perhaps there are Christians who do, or periods of time where fearmongering was the way, but Christ teaches to love others, to share the truth. And also that it is not our job to save people. I have said that in the past to, I am not here to "save" you, I am only here to share the truth. You can believe or not believe and it doesn't effect me one bit.

Edit: I didn't mean we become sinless now..... that was a mispeak. When God looks at a Christian now He sees Christ's righteousness, not our own. But, when we are in heaven we will be sinless.

 

[Mike375]

Which parts of the basic story are correct?

One thing I wondered is why a guy who could walk across water and bring the dead back to life didn't just float away when they tried to capture him. Or make the nails bend when they tried to drive them through him.

And when he brought himself back to life why did he leave the holes insead of healing the wounds?

The whole story is inane and could only be believed by those who completely suspend any consideration of their own credulity.

You are getting yourself confused and tying yourself up around the Jesus stuff.

Don't you remember I said "Abrahamic religions".

 

[Mike375]

I have come to believe that most "modern" religions, especially Abrahamic ones, are simply a case of the downtrodden and oppressed, bereft of the ability to better their poor miserable existence, had to cling to the fact that they would triumph in the end and that those who maltreated them would finally get their comeuppance. Not in this world, of course, but the next. It made their lot more bearable.

As (I think it was Stalin) said, religion is the opiate of the people.

I have several private practice medical specialists clients who are at the "born again" level of religion. Incomes range from $1 million to over $5 million. What do you think makes these people take on the religion at such a fundamentalist level. My own view is they simply "see something" which I can't see.

But these are hardly the oppressed etc

 

[Adam Caramon]

Well, God is certainly someone to fear, anyone who has all that power and might would be. And hell is certainly something to fear.

Its only something to fear if you allow yourself to be afraid of it. It would be fear of a thought. And, isn't Satan supposed to be the one you fear? Out of curiosity, who do you fear more, your God or Satan?

But fear is not why I chose to serve Him, and not why most of the people I know chose to, nor is that what most of the people I talk to in person ask about when we talk about God.

I believe you. You seem to be more than just a run-of-the-mill religious person. I don't want to use the word "extreme" because that has negative connotation, but I'd say you're definitely more dedicated to your religion than most.

It's God's love for me that Caused me to love Him.

But, be honest with yourself. When you were born, you had no idea what god's love was. You didn't know what god was. You didn't understand the concept of religions, etc.

Someone had to instruct you in these ways. Unless you're one of the rare people who picked up religion as an adult, your choice to be religious is largely dependent upon your parents/caretakers having chosen to introduce you to the religion.

And yes it has struck a chord with me because I know it to be untrue. Perhaps there are Christians who do, or periods of time where fearmongering was the way, but Christ teaches to love others, to share the truth.

Surely you've heard the oft-uttered phrase "If I am wrong, nothing happens. But if you're wrong..." I've known several women who had their babies baptised "just in case". Or had a priest at a funeral "just in case". They don't necessarily believe in it, but there is still some fear that that they might be wrong, and how terrible that would be if they were. Fear is the most effective recruiting tool of Christianity.

And also that it is not our job to save people. I have said that in the past to, I am not here to "save" you, I am only here to share the truth. You can believe or not believe and it doesn't effect me one bit.

Ok, let me ask this. I'm a non-believer. In your religion, that means I go to hell, right? (this changes based on which branch of Christianity you adhere to).

Let's assume that's the case. So, if by your sharing the word of god with me causes me to open my eyes, embrace the bible, etc, etc, and I become a Christian, now I will no longer go to hell, right?

If that's the case, then, regardless of the words you use, you're trying to save people by sharing with them.

 

[Kryst51]

Its only something to fear if you allow yourself to be afraid of it. It would be fear of a thought. And, isn't Satan supposed to be the one you fear? Out of curiosity, who do you fear more, your God or Satan?

I fear God more, He is the one who has power over me (or at least I should. ) Satan has no power over me so I am not supposed to fear him. But the fear I have for God is not something that makes me afraid of Him, if that makes any kind of sense. I know God's character, and that He is loving and merciful. But I should never approach Him without forgetting who He is, so fear in that kind of way.

I believe you. You seem to be more than just a run-of-the-mill religious person. I don't want to use the word "extreme" because that has negative connotation, but I'd say you're definitely more dedicated to your religion than most.

Thank you.

But, be honest with yourself. When you were born, you had no idea what god's love was. You didn't know what god was. You didn't understand the concept of religions, etc.

Someone had to instruct you in these ways. Unless you're one of the rare people who picked up religion as an adult, your choice to be religious is largely dependent upon your parents/caretakers having chosen to introduce you to the religion.

I agree with you, unless I had been taught I wouldn't know, but that doesn't make it any less true. But once I did hear I had a choice of whether or not to believe.

Even now, though I was saved as a child, if I wanted I could go do whatever I wanted and not believe in God (and there have been times I wish I could have, and people who do that all the time) but in my heart I know the truth, so I could never really turn away. It's more than a mind issue, it's written on my heart as well, just as I know who I am I know that God is real, and that the Bible is true.

Surely you've heard the oft-uttered phrase "If I am wrong, nothing happens. But if you're wrong..." I've known several women who had their babies baptised "just in case". Or had a priest at a funeral "just in case". They don't necessarily believe in it, but there is still some fear that that they might be wrong, and how terrible that would be if they were. Fear is the most effective recruiting tool of Christianity.

Unfortunately with God there is no "just in case," God knows your heart. And it is not a matter of doing the right thing that saves you, but recognizing your sin, recognizing the separation it causes, recognizing that Jesus has provided a way to rectify the situation by leading a sinless life and allowing Himself to be sacrificed for us and defeating death, and believing that He is who He said He was. My Baptism did not save me, My actions did not save me, nor do current good deeds save me or bad deeds make me lose my salvation.

The statement you mentioned used I think is valid, but not really the point. People use that because as humans we are prideful, and we want to win. But when pride is put aside, if a person truly believes the tenants of Christianity, they should feel sadness more than smugness. So that statement has always rang hollow and uncaring in my ears.

Ok, let me ask this. I'm a non-believer. In your religion, that means I go to hell, right? (this changes based on which branch of Christianity you adhere to).

Let's assume that's the case. So, if by your sharing the word of god with me causes me to open my eyes, embrace the bible, etc, etc, and I become a Christian, now I will no longer go to hell, right?

If that's the case, then, regardless of the words you use, you're trying to save people by sharing with them.

Yeah, but if you choose not to believe, it's no skin off my back (I mean it has no lasting effect on my life, though as previously mentioned above I might feel sad). Also, As much as I tell you I have no power to save, that power belongs to God and God alone. So I can't stress about it too much, or try to "scare" you into believing. That is trying to take matters into my own hand. All I can do is present the truth.

 

[Adam Caramon]

I agree with you, unless I had been taught I wouldn't know, but that doesn't make it any less true. But once I did hear I had a choice of whether or not to believe.

But, a couple of things. Sure, you could at anytime change your mind and choose not to believe in god anymore. But the fact that it was introduced to you at a young age as "the truth" is very powerful. It is very difficult to turn away from those things learned at a young age. Psychologists and psychiatrists make the largest portion of their income dealing from these very issues.

Second question, you've agreed above that if you don't believe in god, you'll be punished (go to hell, or whatever). What if you're never exposed to the knowledge of god? What if you live in a place where no one is a Christian? Are all of those people SOL or do they get some kind of get-out-of-hell-free-card since they had no chance to choose to worship?

My Baptism did not save me.

Ok, but if you had never been baptised, doesn't that mean that you were never cleansed of original sin and thus cannot go to heaven? So while it may not be only the baptism needed in order get in, it is one of the requirements.

This is what I mean by fear. The church spreads this message that unbaptised babies go to limbo instead of heaven. Parents that are religious adopt this practice. Parents who are slightly religious may not believe it actually means anything, but they will follow through with it out of fear. Fear that they may be wrong. Regardless of if they are right or wrong, they are motivated by fear.

The statement you mentioned used I think is valid, but not really the point. People use that because as humans we are prideful, and we want to win. But when pride is put aside, if a person truly believes the tenants of Christianity, they should feel sadness more than smugness. So that statement has always rang hollow and uncaring in my ears.

I would agree that it is hollow and uncaring, which I think says more about the believer and reinforces my point about it being driven by fear. The people that use phrases like this aren't true believers. They use the religion as a sort of insurance policy against hell.

Now, I get what you're saying. It won't help them in the end because god knows all. But where did the people learn this? I would suggest that it is part of the church's message. It is something they spread and reinforce to drive recruitment and keep their coffers filled.

Yeah, but if you choose not to believe, it's no skin off my back (I mean it has no lasting effect on my life, though as previously mentioned above I might feel sad). Also, As much as I tell you I have no power to save, that power belongs to God and God alone. So I can't stress about it too much, or try to "scare" you into believing. That is trying to take matters into my own hand. All I can do is present the truth.

As far as I know, you as an individual are not out and about holding signs saying "Repent! The end is nigh!" Or other such fear-based recruitment tactics. But organized religion does just that. In other words, you may not try to "scare" people into believing, but it is a tactic used by organized religion. That is what I was trying to show.

 

[ChipperT]

It has been my experience in my long life that Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. I would bet that if you could take a statistical sample of professed Christians (or of any sub-set such as "Born Again Believers", "Evangelicals", etc) and measure then against society as a whole, you would find the same "sins", good things, etc. If someone is truly following the Christian tenets, if someone was truly "born-again", if they were truly "Christian" in its real meaning ("Christ-like") then there would be an obvious difference in the manner, their actions, and their lives (other than what comes out of their mouths). You should be able to tell a Christian from an non-Christian by their lives. I don't think you can.

 

[Kryst51]

But, a couple of things. Sure, you could at anytime change your mind and choose not to believe in god anymore. But the fact that it was introduced to you at a young age as "the truth" is very powerful. It is very difficult to turn away from those things learned at a young age. Psychologists and psychiatrists make the largest portion of their income dealing from these very issues.

How do you deal with people who come to Christ as an adult? It happens all the time. And I also know people who grew up as Christians and once they left their parents home turned away from it...

Second question, you've agreed above that if you don't believe in god, you'll be punished (go to hell, or whatever). What if you're never exposed to the knowledge of god? What if you live in a place where no one is a Christian? Are all of those people SOL or do they get some kind of get-out-of-hell-free-card since they had no chance to choose to worship?

To be blunt, yes they are SOL. That is why it is so important for Christians to go and tell others about Christ. I have heard from missionaries of people in foreign countries who have come up to them and said basically "I have been seeking God and have prayed for answers, I have been waiting for you". So God sent someone so they would hear. Part of my belief, and not all Christians believe this, is that a person cannot choose God unless He chooses them first. I believe this because the Bible tells us we are dead in our sins. Which to me means that we cannot choose life, only that God can choose to give us life (Or make us reborn, whichever way you prefer). And as a Christian I have no idea who God will call to Him or who He want so it is not up to me to decide who I will tell and who I won't. The only thing that constrains me in this area are legalities (Not at work unless I know the person well and it comes up in conversation, or if I have a relationship with someone.) I wouldn't just go up to a random person or hang out on a street corner shouting that everyone is going to hell or anything like that.

Ok, but if you had never been baptised, doesn't that mean that you were never cleansed of original sin and thus cannot go to heaven? So while it may not be only the baptism needed in order get in, it is one of the requirements.

Baptism doesn't clean me of my sin, Christ Cleanses me of my sin. baptism is just a public profession of faith that the aforementioned event has occurred. And we abide by it because we were told to be obedient to be obedient to Christ, and as Christ followed obedience to His Father, we do the same. Obedience to Christ comes out of our love fore Him, and if we fail we are forgiven, we cannot lead perfect lives while we still have these sinful bodies, but now we can choose not to sin. The only requirement to get into heaven (be with God) is to believe in Christ, nothing else, not Baptism, not good works, you don't have to be perfect.

This is what I mean by fear. The church spreads this message that unbaptised babies go to limbo instead of heaven. Parents that are religious adopt this practice. Parents who are slightly religious may not believe it actually means anything, but they will follow through with it out of fear. Fear that they may be wrong. Regardless of if they are right or wrong, they are motivated by fear.

The Catholic Church talks about limbo, not all Christians. And I do believe babies go to Heaven, The Psalms (most attributed to King David) talk about how When David's son died he spoke of seeing him again someday in Heaven.

I would agree that it is hollow and uncaring, which I think says more about the believer and reinforces my point about it being driven by fear. The people that use phrases like this aren't true believers. They use the religion as a sort of insurance policy against hell.

They might be true believers (I can't really judge one way or the other), but they are still sinful, and thus will make mistakes.... How I talk with people now is very different from how I would have approached someone when I was 18 years old. That kind of thing involves spiritual maturity as well as physical.

Now, I get what you're saying. It won't help them in the end because god knows all. But where did the people learn this? I would suggest that it is part of the church's message. It is something they spread and reinforce to drive recruitment and keep their coffers filled.

I am not sure what you are asking here? What won't help who in the end? As far as where anything cam from, you know the Christian answer to that too, I am sure. The Bible which is divinely inspired by God.

As far as I know, you as an individual are not out and about holding signs saying "Repent! The end is nigh!" Or other such fear-based recruitment tactics. But organized religion does just that. In other words, you may not try to "scare" people into believing, but it is a tactic used by organized religion. That is what I was trying to show.

OK, some organizations do, I don't deny. But it goes against what Christ would have us do, I believe. We are all sinners and though that doesn't excuse the behavior I think it helps explain it a bit. People/organizations that do that will not be very effective and usually make people more bitter. Which is certainly not what a Christian's goal should be.

 

[Kryst51]

It has been my experience in my long life that Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. I would bet that if you could take a statistical sample of professed Christians (or of any sub-set such as "Born Again Believers", "Evangelicals", etc) and measure then against society as a whole, you would find the same "sins", good things, etc. If someone is truly following the Christian tenets, if someone was truly "born-again", if they were truly "Christian" in its real meaning ("Christ-like") then there would be an obvious difference in the manner, their actions, and their lives (other than what comes out of their mouths). You should be able to tell a Christian from an non-Christian by their lives. I don't think you can.

I agree that we are no worse or no better than anyone else. I agree that you SHOULD be able to tell a Christian by their lives. However, We still sin. And there is still good in the world that everyone is capable of. That is why deeds and works don't save or damn someone. Only belief in Christ.

 

[Adam Caramon]

How do you deal with people who come to Christ as an adult? It happens all the time. And I also know people who grew up as Christians and once they left their parents home turned away from it...

In explaining these things, I'm talking about trends. It would simplistic to say that every Christian is brainwashed as a youth and that is why they are Christians as adults. We know that is not true. However, you can detect patterns with research. Research indicates that if you're exposed (some would say indoctrinated) towards a religion as a youth, you're far more likely to follow that religion as an adult.

Adults who choose religion on their own are expressing their freedom of religion.

The only thing that constrains me in this area are legalities (Not at work unless I know the person well and it comes up in conversation, or if I have a relationship with someone.) I wouldn't just go up to a random person or hang out on a street corner shouting that everyone is going to hell or anything like that.

But, if you truly believe that non-believers go to hell, why should legalities stop you from trying to convince them? Legalities would be of this short, mortal life. We're talking about a person's eternal salvation. I would think that would be more important than following the law.

I am not sure what you are asking here? What won't help who in the end?

The point I was trying to make was that if a person simply believes in god because they fear death, but is really not a Christian, then god would see through that facade. They wouldn't be rewarded with entrance into heaven simply because they pretended to be a Christian.

But the church (i.e. organized religion) benefits even from its fake followers.

OK, some organizations do, I don't deny. But it goes against what Christ would have us do, I believe.

That's in the vein of the Ghandi quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


As I've said in threads passed, I enjoy learning about religions and I find them fascinating from an academic standpoint. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that people still believe in them though.

To me there are mounds and mounds of evidence against the possibility of a god as proclaimed in the old or new testament.

The pros and cons of religion can be debated, but in my opinion there are far more cons. If their were no churches, and people kept their religions at home, I think we'd all be a lot happier and more successful.

 

[IrrevBlack]

No good. I could put you on the Australian guns/hunting forum with some atheists but the best ones are on the Australian Atheist Foundation forum. Apart from low brain power (not all of them of course) they are also into the moon landing being a hoax

One day I asked one of them if he didn't think it was strange if the moon landing was a hoax that they would stretch things a bit by following with Apollo 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 as opposed to calling it quits at Apollo 11.

But I will grant you the average IQ on the atheist side is much higher but the low and high number are the same on either side.

Mike, I have come over from the Atheist Foundation of Australia's forums, just to ask where one of our posters has claimed the moon landing is a hoax, apart from one poster "asking", by way of a joke).

I think your username on our forums may have been MikeM. A user by that name was expelled for circular reasoning, unsupportable claims, and general unpleasantness.

 

[Mike375]

It has been my experience in my long life that Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. I would bet that if you could take a statistical sample of professed Christians (or of any sub-set such as "Born Again Believers", "Evangelicals", etc) and measure then against society as a whole, you would find the same "sins", good things, etc. If someone is truly following the Christian tenets, if someone was truly "born-again", if they were truly "Christian" in its real meaning ("Christ-like") then there would be an obvious difference in the manner, their actions, and their lives (other than what comes out of their mouths). You should be able to tell a Christian from an non-Christian by their lives. I don't think you can.

There is no difference because the Christianity part pf religion is man made.

Let me use Access as an analogy. You and I are both given an .mdb file with a table, the same table. The "truth" I see in the spiritual is the counterpart of that table. The table on its own doesn't mean much to most people so we add our queries, VBA, forms etc. and our results are very different but the that table is still the same.

 

[Mike375]

Mike, I have come over from the Atheist Foundation of Australia's forums, just to ask where one of our posters has claimed the moon landing is a hoax, apart from one poster "asking", by way of a joke).

I think your username on our forums may have been MikeM. A user by that name was expelled for circular reasoning, unsupportable claims, and general unpleasantness.

That's me

Actually I thought most of tis type of discussion was in the general joke area.

Welcome aboard.

 

[the_net_2.0]

There is no difference because the Christianity part pf religion is man made.

Let me use Access as an analogy. You and I are both given an .mdb file with a table, the same table. The "truth" I see in the spiritual is the counterpart of that table. The table on its own doesn't mean much to most people so we add our queries, VBA, forms etc. and our results are very different but the that table is still the same.

what a bunch of BS.

what happens if the developer made the table appear simply out of his love and passion for access?

so you're saying that people created God because life meant nothing to them otherwise, right?

does that mean that your son or daughter was conceived because otherwise, life would mean nothing to you?

 

[Galaxiom]

Let me use Access as an analogy. You and I are both given an .mdb file with a table, the same table. The "truth" I see in the spiritual is the counterpart of that table. The table on its own doesn't mean much to most people so we add our queries, VBA, forms etc. and our results are very different but the that table is still the same.

And just like Access, those tables get corrupted if users share the same files. Every user should have an independent front end. The front ends used by the church seem to be quite corrupt through extensive reworking of the code.

The data inconsistencies also suggest the backend tables were not properly normalized either. However I think the real problem is with the ODBC (Occulted Deity Bullshit Connectivity) system which never worked well.

Versioning has also been a major nightmare. The God Object in the beta release (codename Hebrew) was fairly consistent when released as Bible 1.0 but it seems quite incompatible with Bible 2.0 causing a great deal of confusion particularly over the Jesus plugin.

The competition (also based on the original Abraham Operating System) show a lot of similarity with the original Bible release.

Numerous other Abraham based startups have failed to obtain significant market share as it is widely recognised the problems are deeply embeded in the Abraham code itself. A considerable section of users have converted over to Buddha in the search for greater stability.

 

[Mike375]

what a bunch of BS.

what happens if the developer made the table appear simply out of his love and passion for access?

so you're saying that people created God because life meant nothing to them otherwise, right?

does that mean that your son or daughter was conceived because otherwise, life would mean nothing to you?

No, what I am saying is Christianity in all its versions and Islam are a long way down the track from the "original" and are man made and so all of them a very different and can be shot to pieces.

 

[the_net_2.0]

Numerous other Abraham based startups have failed to obtain significant market share as it is widely recognised the problems are deeply embeded in the Abraham code itself. A considerable section of users have converted over to Buddha in the search for greater stability.

LOL. oops! did I say that?

No, what I am saying is Christianity in all its versions and Islam are a long way down the track from the "original" and are man made and so all of them a very different and can be shot to pieces.

so can Access. there are so many holes in microsoft software, that we should think about switching to Abraham code!