I identify as vaccinated

I didn't miss the point, I knew exactly what you were getting at. You are saying that even if vaccines cut the number of deaths in the millions, because the future is uncertain you cannot be 100% sure that more people will die because of the vaccine and therefore that is reason to not take a vaccine. But once again, we are back to the rational choice argument which I have made from the outset. Avoiding any risk from the vaccine exposes yourself to the risk from what the vaccine protects you from. And that risk is cumulative.

Actually, people DO try to avoid buying vehicles from manufacturers, lines or models that have poorer safety defects,
Well, let me use your own argument against you. Let us say they choose a manufacturer with a low incident rate of defects. You still don't know 20 years from now if that car will have a lethal defect or not. Therefore, using the principle you are arguing with, you would understand someones position who decides not to buy the safest model of car because you cannot be 100% certain in the future. They choose horse, while ignoring the risk of dying from falling from that horse, which is greater than dying from a parts failure on the car.

I'm suggesting some people might want to wait longer to get the vaccine, which - given the reality, which is, the pandemic will easily be defeated as long as those who are enthusiastic about getting the vaccine do so - is going to turn out OK.
So don't get the vaccine yourself to save yourself, while exposing your friends, family, children, relatives, yourself, Mother Teresa and the rest of the human race to a potentially lethal infection.

Keep in mind: I actually got the vaccine. I just try to understand the position of those who haven't.
I understand Isaac. It is good to try to understand others position and I try to do the same. My take on it is that the others perspective is an irrational and selfish one. They expose themselves to greater harm by not taking the vaccine. And since a virus does not operate in a vacuum, it exposes risk to everyone else too.

Think of this as an analogy. Someone is given two revolvers, both of which shoots off random bullets. There is a 1 in 500 chance of Revolver A (no vaccine) going off, potentially killing yourself or someone else. Revolver B (vaccinated) has a 1/1,000,000 chance of going off. Given the choice, which would you want to keep in your pocket?

You could argue that Revolver B might go off more frequently in the future and so you want to hesitate in your choice. But so can Revolver A. The virus mutates, and the strains that infect faster become the dominant strain. Faster infections = even greater risk.

Edit: Please note that I am not your GP. I have no medical training, except 2 hours of resuscitation training. Consult your medical practitioner and solicitor for advice. All examples above are fictitious and are not intended to represent anyone, even Mother Teresa.
 
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And since a virus does not operate in a vacuum, it exposes risk to everyone else too.
Flawed logic Jon, and a company song from the get-go. If you truly trust the vaccine (I don't) then how are the vaccinated at risk?
 
Not sure what you mean by company song. I am assuming you think my logic is flawed because of my use of the word "everyone".

A vaccine does not give 100% protection (1st jab 70%, 2nd jab 90% if Astra Zenica). You can still get infected and die, or spread it to others even if vaccinated. It just reduces the risk significantly. It is black and white thinking if you perceive vaccines to be 100% protection. And my arguments are not just about the individual, but the risk of infecting others, and that includes the vaccinated and unvaccinated. There are millions of people still waiting for their 1st or 2nd jabs. And vaccination protection declines over time, which results in increased exposure. What about those in countries that cannot get or afford the jab, like Africa? Do their lives not count too? It is a global problem. The unvaccinated elsewhere will lead to more mutations and further global spread.

I am interested in where you think my logic is flawed...
 
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A robust exchange between equals is always something to be admired.
Assuming you included me in that sentence, well then thank you and I would disagree on the "equal" part in regards to intellect and ability to convey thoughts so eloquently. I am almost intimidated because I cannot argue my case without sounding like the simpleton that I am.

Edit: @Jon, I will respond to you but I am on a conference call and I need to pay attention somewhat...
 
I am happy to chip in and argue the opposite case if anyone wants. i.e. I ended up fighting with myself in a paper bag. :LOL:
 
Edit: @Jon, I will respond to you but I am on a conference call and I need to pay attention somewhat...
Anytime. So long as you don't end up doing this on a conference call...


Edit: I know that was old news.
 
I am happy to chip in and argue the opposite case if anyone wants. i.e. I ended up fighting with myself in a paper bag. :LOL:

I can't do that "fighting with myself" because if I lose, I can't handle it.
 
Regarding this said earlier by @Isaac:
Personally, the longer I live, and the more I see, the less I trust the government.
What shocked me during the pandemic was how the government was prepared to lie blatantly about mask usage. You have all heard me bang on about the "masks don't work, save these things that don't work for the medics, since they need non-working things", or comments to that effect. The fact they were prepared to do it for something that could save lives, because they thought the strategy would overall save more lives, meant my trust in what they say hit the floor.

Then, reading about the Hillary Clinton email saga, FBI Russia Collusion witch-hunt, bogus Steele email dossier, and plenty of other corrupt events in US politics, I realised that corruption is everywhere.
 
I have been vaccinated for a great number of diseases over the years (thank goodness no side effects). Will I still get the disease even though I am vaccinated, possibly. Will I get sick with take a future vaccine, possibly. But I feel it is worth the risk. I have read that even though some people still got COVID after getting vaccinated, the symptoms were not as bad.
 
If someone can prove they have been exposed to the virus and have their own antibodies why waste the dose? Do they need 2 jabs with a possible 3rd jab later?

This is a gray area where people are being double dosed because it makes others feel safe. We have no idea what the effects will be years from now of virus overdosing.

We may get to the point like penicillin the cure becomes ineffective due to over use.
 
Yet without penicillin many more would be dead.

I see the Covid thing as something where we get jabs in eternity, a bit like the flu jab. What happens after 50 pandemics...do we get 50 jabs a year? Will be like a pin cushion!
 
I wouldn't think so. Do antibodies decay in strength over time? Do they protect from new variants? Good questions to ask.

Edit: What level of protection do your naturally acquired antibodies provide compared to having a jab as well?
 
Personally, the longer I live, and the more I see, the less I trust the government. I understand that not everyone may feel that way. Perhaps it's a British vs. American cultural thing?
The complex cure and worldwide distribution seem to be easy compared to placing blame as to the origins of covid-19. Donald Trump was the only person on the planet to criticize the CCP and NIH. Now the dopes at the lamestream media are coming around to what we all suspected a year ago.
 

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