Linked Tables (1 Viewer)

samye228

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Hello,

I am interested in understanding about linked tables. I have inherited an Access database that was created approximately in 2002. When the format changed the database mdb tables were linked to the new Access version. Is this common practice? Would it be beneficial to update these tables?

Also I have a table with what looks like a GUID. If I look at the relationships of the database, I see that table is related to a named table with the same fields. What would cause this? Is there a way to "fix" this?

There are also several tables that have relationships with a _1 after it. I'm assuming that is probably a default name when someone created the relationship. Example, Agency Names is related to Agency Names_1. How do I find out if this relationship is necessary?

The database does not follow any conventional naming standards. Is it worth it for me to try and update table names, forms, queries etc? If so, how would one go about this?

Thank you.

Thank you,
Carol
 

theDBguy

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Hi. I'll try to answer some of your questions.
When the format changed the database mdb tables were linked to the new Access version. Is this common practice? Would it be beneficial to update these tables?
Newer Access applications shouldn't have any problems connecting to data stored in an older version (unless it was created with the 97 version). If you like, you could upgrade the data storage to newer Access version, but that's entirely up to you.
Also I have a table with what looks like a GUID. If I look at the relationships of the database, I see that table is related to a named table with the same fields. What would cause this? Is there a way to "fix" this?
One possible cause is it might have been a part of a "replication" database. I'm not sure if it's needed to be fixed. What was the database used for? Who and how do they use it? That might tell you if that table is needed or not.
There are also several tables that have relationships with a _1 after it. I'm assuming that is probably a default name when someone created the relationship. Example, Agency Names is related to Agency Names_1. How do I find out if this relationship is necessary?
Again, this is something you can answer by "knowing" the business process the database application is trying to model. I would typically see a similar setup when there are self-referential relationships. For example, employees and their supervisors or children and their parents.
The database does not follow any conventional naming standards. Is it worth it for me to try and update table names, forms, queries etc? If so, how would one go about this?
I think that's a personal choice too. If you think it will help you in the future to spend the time now to fix the naming convention, then you should do it. As to how, may be there are tools for doing something like that. However, I cannot recommend any right now.

Hope that helps...
 

jdraw

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Further to theDBGuy's comments, I would ask how important is this database to the business? If critical, and if you are the "maintainer/team", then it seems imperative that you or someone be trained accordingly. Often, there is a patron/manager who depends on some these "applications" and it is him/her who can judge the value of same. That person may have knowledge to help answer your questions (at least in part).

Does the organization have any data management standards and procedures? Any manuals (user guide, design/technical manual...)? Anyone knowledgeable of the application still with the company?
How did this "inheritance" happen? Why you?

Welcome to the forum!
 

Pat Hartman

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@samye228 I spent a lot of time answering these exact questions in the General forum. You are new and getting used to posting questions. Please do not post the same question in multiple places. That will just aggravate the people who are trying to help you only to find out that they didn't need to waste their time because someone already answered the question in a different post.

Naming standards are very important and if you are going to be managing this application for years, then you probably want to invest some time in standardizing names but you can do it one table at a time. Unless you can take the app offline for several days, you probably want to make changes like this using baby steps so you are never more than an hour or two away from a stable version that you can modify for the user. Your employer or the client isn't paying you to make standardization changes. They don't understand how this will help in the long run. All they'll see is you doing something they aren't asking you to do and so they might be reluctant to support this effort.

The other changes I suggested in your first thread are critical for stability of the app and as a non-Access developer, you would have no clue that they are even a problem.
1. the app MUST be split
2. there must be a proper distribution method for updates to the FE
3. every user must have his own copy of the master FE
4. RI helps to ensure data integrity and will help you to find bad data and hopefully fix it.
5. Adding Option Explicit and eliminating all compile errors also makes for a less fragile application.
 
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samye228

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Hello,

Thank you all for your responses. Just to clear up about posting twice. I received an email per my Intro email and it was suggested I post the questions in the appropriate forum. I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you Pat Hartman for your detailed information in the intro section, it is much appreciated.

The application is vital to the business unit as it supports the statute of the state agency. There are no "experts" but once I figure out my approach, I can probably get some funds to work with a consultant. This is state government, very hard to get funding.

What I've been working on mostly is cleaning up the data because at some point we are hoping to get an enterprise solution that will meet the entire state's departments needs. The app contains information about all Nevada state-owned buildings.

I can add standards as I start updating/organizing things. The standards would be naming conventions, i.e. qry_ for Query, tbl_ for Table, etc.

This DB was created by someone who knew nothing of data standards or processing so it's a legacy system that needs to be moved desperately and really interface on an enterprise level with other state systems such as financial, lands, etc.

It sounds like my best option is to leave as is and work on massaging the data so it contains what we need.

Kind Regards,
Carol
 

Pat Hartman

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@Galaxiom Not sure why you are quoting me. This is what I was referring to:
The database does not follow any conventional naming standards. Is it worth it for me to try and update table names, forms, queries etc? If so, how would one go about this?
 

GPGeorge

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Hello,

Thank you all for your responses. Just to clear up about posting twice. I received an email per my Intro email and it was suggested I post the questions in the appropriate forum. I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you Pat Hartman for your detailed information in the intro section, it is much appreciated.

The application is vital to the business unit as it supports the statute of the state agency. There are no "experts" but once I figure out my approach, I can probably get some funds to work with a consultant. This is state government, very hard to get funding.

What I've been working on mostly is cleaning up the data because at some point we are hoping to get an enterprise solution that will meet the entire state's departments needs. The app contains information about all Nevada state-owned buildings.

I can add standards as I start updating/organizing things. The standards would be naming conventions, i.e. qry_ for Query, tbl_ for Table, etc.

This DB was created by someone who knew nothing of data standards or processing so it's a legacy system that needs to be moved desperately and really interface on an enterprise level with other state systems such as financial, lands, etc.

It sounds like my best option is to leave as is and work on massaging the data so it contains what we need.

Kind Regards,
Carol
I hope you have a solid, consistent and reliable backup protocol in place. One should never work on "the master" production copy of an mdb or accdb. And, as a rule of thumb, one can't have too many backups and a system for maintaining them.
 

Pat Hartman

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This is state government,
Bless you. I can't say anything good about working on projects for the State of Connecticut including that they always found creative ways to waste my tax dollars.

It sounds like my best option is to leave as is and work on massaging the data so it contains what we need.
Start by cleaning up the data. Since RI was not enforced, you are likely to find plenty. Then make sure the infrastructure is sound. Check the backup strategy as well.

Regarding future plans, there is no reason that the Access app could not be the future unless you need a web app. So, that should dictate now much of the state's money you spend on fixing the app to your liking. If the app is being replaced, there is no point in fixing anything that isn't actually broken. I also used to tell my programmers when I was managing a department - I don't want to attend a code walk through and be able to identify YOUR code. When you modify an existing application, your code should look like it was written by the original author. It should not stand out like a sore thumb no matter whether your standards are better or not. Writing new programs is a whole different situation. For those walkthroughs, I was a stickler for standards and consistency.

Access gets a lot of bad press about its limitations so you might get pushback from your IT department if you suggest that Access can solve the problem for the state, not just your department. The thing is that the people who write about how bad "Access" is are actually writing about Jet (.mdb) and ACE (.accdb) the desktop database engines that power access vs. SQL Server. They are not writing about Access the RAD tool and they don't understand the difference. Right now your app is using Access the RAD tool as the Interface and it is also using Jet (.mdb) as the desktop database engine to hold the data. Because Jet and ACE are desktop database engines, the size of the database is limited and so is the number of concurrent connections. In theory the concurrent connections are limited to 255. In reality, most Access apps that use Jet/ACE for the BE rarely support more than 50 users. Once you switch the BE to SQL Server, the downside pretty much disappears. Your concurrent user count now becomes the number of seat licences you have for SQL Server. Your data security is hugely increased also. The only limitation you have left is if your management is willing to live with a client/server application rather than a web app. The upside to developing with Access the RAD tool is the speed with which you can develop. The downside is that it is close to impossible to have a development team larger than 2 people so the application size limit becomes whatever 1-2 people can produce in the designated time frame. I'm not saying that Access is a universal development platform but for the types of applications it is suitable for, there is no better platform. Any replacement app that is web based will be quoted in the millions of dollars and potentially years of development time. Access can produce the identical application as client/server in less than 30% of the time and money and probably with better features and integration with other apps. But remember - not all apps are suitable for Access. It is just that when they are, there is nothing better.

If you are in a position to evaluate the state-wide need and how it is currently being handled, you should have a better feel for whether Access with a SQL Server BE would be suitable. Remember, if employees will need remote access, Citrix hosted by the state will be an excellent alternative to a web app and due to COVID, they may already have Citrix set up. In house people would work on the LAN. Remote people would log in via Citrix and would access the same LAN. One of my apps was hosted in Farmington CT ( a suburb of Hartford) but my users were up and down the East coast and spreading to the west coast as well as being in London and Paris. The Farmington folks used the LAN, everyone else used Citrix and the remote people got response times as good as and sometimes better than the local folks. Some of the data used by the app was hosted in SQL Server on the Farmington LAN and some was hosted in London because the app interacted with some existing applications.

When the schema is bad, that is the biggest hurdle to overcome. Are you going to try to fix it or are you going to live with it until the "new" app is developed? If the future is Access, you can develop a new database as you are making fixes to the existing database rather than dealing with cleaning up the old one Of course, you not being an Access developer, will mean that you are no way as fast as an Access expert would be but if you follow my advice to let Access be Access and stay out of the way, you'll be much more successful in a shorter amount of time than if you attempt to make Access bend to your will.
 

Galaxiom

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The database does not follow any conventional naming standards.
The "conventions" are not important especially the nonsense about prepending field names with a datatype.

What is important is that the names are meaningful. It would be a waste of time to change them unless they are meaningless.

If you do need to change any names use the Replace facility in the Total Deep Search tool in Vtools. Turn off NameAutoCorrect in Access before using the tool. Review the names before allowing them to change let you get false matches.
 

Pat Hartman

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I'm not sure I said "conventions" are important. I said "standards" are important. Consistency is your friend and that is what standards are all about.
 

The_Doc_Man

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Just to toss my two cents' worth, the best naming convention to implement & follow is the one that (a) makes sense to you and (b) isn't so complex that you can't follow it effectively. Whether you use qry_ or q_ or don't even use underscores for query names, just follow your own guidance.

When reviewing this app, the advice about deciding the future before expending too much time on making changes? Solid gold advice. But IF you decide to stay with Access, then remember that your purpose is to track the business model, not control it. In a sense, you are building a model or a simulation of some procedures that would be used to manage the property. IF you are going forward with this, never build something that forces the tail to wag the dog. I come from a physical sciences background. We have a rule... if reality disagrees with your model, there is 99.9999% chance that the model is wrong. Therefore, whatever you do, remember that you have to always respect reality.
 

Isaac

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The "conventions" are not important especially the nonsense about prepending field names with a datatype.

What is important is that the names are meaningful. It would be a waste of time to change them unless they are meaningless.

If you do need to change any names use the Replace facility in the Total Deep Search tool in Vtools. Turn off NameAutoCorrect in Access before using the tool. Review the names before allowing them to change let you get false matches.

Convention does not necessarily mean what you seem to think.

Meaningfulness could be a convention, depending on what the company values or considers quality.

Anything could be a convention.

Naming things thoughtfully is very important, @samye228 , and I agree with your instinct that called this out.

However, it can be difficult to do post-implementation but is a good lesson learnt for later.
 

HealthyB1

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What is important is that the names are meaningful. It would be a waste of time to change them unless they are meaningless.

If you do need to change any names use the Replace facility in the Total Deep Search tool in Vtools. Turn off NameAutoCorrect in Access before using the tool. Review the names before allowing them to change let you get false matches.
V-Tools seems to be a great tool. However is there a user manual for it please? I am trying to figure out how to use the DIB Pictures for controls on my forms.
 

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