Muslims Rioting in Sweden (1 Viewer)

[Jon]

For me, freedom of speech is weakly linked to the right to burn a Bible. It is more strongly linked to the right of an oppressive leader or power to burn ALL Bibles. When you burn one particular book in a sea of the same books, the other books continue to convey the message. Therefore, there is virtually no reduction in the conveyance of the message and therefore freedom of speech. But when you take them all down, you have suppressed the message via that medium.

Ghosting or reducing the ranking of most tweets from one political party amounts to a suppression of freedom of speech, because the effect is cumulative and on a large scale. The suppression of these tweets is analogous to the burning of Bibles, or perhaps more accurately, the burying of Bibles, since they still exist, if you can find them!

 

[Pat Hartman]

Does holding these two conflicting values not cause a short-circuit of the mind?

Cognitive dissonance

 

[Jon]

Cognitive dissonance

And how does this cognitive dissonance manifest itself?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Then nothing to discuss. We differ on the core of our beliefs.
It seems you can not respect others because they are wrong. Me? I believe everybody deserves to be respected. I don't believe in Bible or Quran. But I try to respect these books because others believe in them.

I disrespect any and all "holy" books equally, but it happens that I don't go burning them. I have the freedom to do so - but not the particular desire. In my own way of thinking, to burn the books would be to grant a level of power that I don't think they should have. But there are those people who wish to make a strong statement. If that is their desire, I will not stand in the way. Besides, burning a copy of the Quran is like the old Doritos commercials. They'll just make more.

My complaint with Islam is specifically that they have not learned the concept of letting the punishment fit the crime. So some jerk goes out and buys a Quran and burns it. So what? Instead of rioting, looting, and widespread arson, just go out and buy a Bible or a Torah or the Analects of Confucius or the Bagavad Gita or something similar and publicly burning that in response. But no, the Swedish Muslims have to go out on a destructive rampage.

When someone draws an image (even a respectfully done image) of Muhammad, how about drawing a picture of Jesus or Moses or King David or the Buddha or... you get the idea. But NO, the Muslims issue a fatwah, a death threat against the artist or cartoonist and they riot and do property damage to the building of the publisher of that image. One of Salman Rushdie's assistants was killed because of the fatwah issued against him.

Look at modern Christian churches in the USA. You do something that the congregation doesn't like? They expel you from their membership and perhaps go through a formal excommunication. No killing. No injuring physically. No property damage. They just say "go away and don't come back." But Islam? If THEY don't like you, they kill you. No moderation.

In the USA we believe that the punishment should fit the crime, so we put people in jail or make them pay restitution or make them pay a fine - or all of those options combined. We are not like the Red Queen from Alice In Wonderland. We don't say "Off with his head" and then call out the executioner with his huge axe. We still have problems here, but we are at least trying to fit the punishment to the crime.

THAT is why I have absolute disrespect for Islam. With them it is "do it their way or die." Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. You say I should respect the ideas of others. But if I have watched continued disrespect for the rights of others by the Islamic world for over 70 years, WHY should I respect them? You say everyone deserves to be respected. To which I reply that everything with people is a reflection. If you cannot show respect, you do not deserve respect. It is the Golden Rule (which pre-dates the Bible). It is the old version of "what goes around comes around." The Islamic community does not show us respect because they always seem to over-react. After repeated cases of this, I have finally lost my patience.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And how does this cognitive dissonance manifest itself?

When people are faced with situations that conflict with their internal beliefs, the result is dissonance. This is a distressing situation and so people do whatever they can to resolve the conflict. In the case of our current political situation, the more outrageous the conflict/hypocrisy, the harder they stick to their guns because they can't accept that they've been duped by the media.

Here's a famous study that explains how this can happen.

Way back in 1957, psychologist Leon Festinger coined the term after what would become a groundbreaking experiment. Festinger and his colleague asked 71 subjects to engage in some snooze-worthy tasks like turning the pegs in a pegboard for an hour. They were paid either $1 or $20 to tell a waiting participant that the task was fun. Afterward, when the subjects were asked to evaluate the experiment, those who were paid $1 rated it as more fun than those who were paid $20.

Confusing, right? What the experiment showed was that the subjects paid $1 experienced dissonance. Why? Because $1 wasn’t enough to warrant lying so they, in effect, convinced themselves that the task was actually enjoyable. Whereas, because the $20 group believed the amount was enough to lie, they didn’t experience dissonance.

To break it down further, the dissonance occurred between the $1 group’s cognition (they really didn’t want to lie) and their behavior (they actually did lie). Performing a task that’s inconsistent with someone’s beliefs is known as forced compliance. And in order to reconcile the inconsistent behavior with their beliefs, they reduced the dissonance they felt by changing their attitude towards the action (reporting it was fun). You follow?

What Festinger’s theory showed was that people need consistency between their attitudes and behaviors—even though achieving that balance isn’t always accomplished in a rational way.

Cognitive Dissonance: What It Is & Why It Matters (psycom.net)

 

[Jon]

We studied Cognitive Dissonance in one of my psychology modules while at university. That was many years ago and I am sure they understand the topic a lot better nowadays.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

My own favorite model of Cognitive Dissonance comes from the tripartite model of the mind derived from Transactional Analysis. They simplify the mind into Child, Parent, and Adult selves as a way to identify the source of the beliefs that lead to the dissonance. The Child self is the seat of all emotions including love, hate, anger, fear, etc. The Parent self is the part of the mind that retains "instructed" behavior, things you learn from your parents and pastor and teachers and other authority figures. The Adult self is the part of the mind that can reason its way through things.

Cognitive Dissonance occurs when the Child self and Parent self detect a conflict. It takes the Adult self to step in (if it can) to resolve the issue. For example, when I was caring for my mother during her last five years, I watched her fade into the fog of Alzheimer's Disease. My Parent self had a strong sense of duty but my Child self hurt terribly with the pain of watching Mom in that terribly degraded state. It took a therapist several months worth of cognitive therapy to help me recognize exactly what was going on and why I felt so bad that I wanted to end it all. Once I got it all sorted out, those dark feelings receded. It was still tough, but I got through it.

The second time I felt that was at about age 35, when I started reading the Bible to help me get through Mom's situation. I felt a sudden cognitive dissonance when my Adult self realized that all of that religious stuff I was taught as a child was not credible - but the dissonance was that I had learned it from my parents and had to face the idea that the two people I trusted most in the whole world had continuously lied to me since I was born. I fully believe this is why some folks are so vehement about religion. If they accepted that God or Allah or Jehovah or (pick your favorite other deity) isn't real, they would have to face the massive cognitive dissonance of recognizing the lies propagated by earlier generations starting with their parents and going back a few hundred generations.

 

[Steve R.]

The rioting in Sweden is just one lone example of the "war on Western Culture". This was briefly reviewed in Post #4 where Eva Vlaardingerbroek Sweden's social fabric is being torn apart by the influx of immigrants who have virtually no regard for Western culture. What is beyond comprehension, many people in the West are actively promoting this cultural suicide. An example of this is reprehensible promotion is the appalling 1619 project by the New York Times. The Muslims being allowed to live in Sweden are an example of Swedish generosity for which, as guests, they are demonstrating no appreciation for.

In the video below Douglas Murray & Jordan Peterson discuss "The War on Western Culture".

The War On Western Culture | Douglas Murray & Jordan Peterson #BeyondOrder #CleanYourRoom #JordanBPeterson #JordanPetersonVideos #RulesForLife #MaryPatriotNews [Video]

This episode was recorded on March 14th, 2022.In this episode, Douglas Murray and I discuss the current assault on the West, slavery, gratitude, racist mathematics, whiteness, (non-Western) accomplishments, and individual sovereignty.Douglas Murray is the associate editor of The Spectator and...

marypatriotnews.com

Douglas Murray also has a new book out, unsurprisingly titled "The War on the West".

In The War on the West, international bestselling author Douglas Murray asks: if the history of humankind is a history of slavery, conquest, prejudice, genocide and exploitation, why are only Western nations taking the blame for it?

It’s become, he explains, perfectly acceptable to celebrate the contributions of non-Western cultures, but discussing their flaws and crimes is called hate speech. What’s more it has become acceptable to discuss the flaws and crimes of Western culture, but celebrating their contributions is also called hate speech. Some of this is a much-needed reckoning; however, some of it is part of a larger international attack on reason, democracy, science, progress, and the citizens of the West by dishonest scholars, hatemongers, hostile nations and human rights abusers hoping to distract from their ongoing villainy.

 

[AngelSpeaks]

My use of the word "War" didn't mean a real war. I meant a conflict 0r something of the sort.
I don't insist on my beliefs, but I don't really think it's correct to push all the blames on them.

Let me ask you something. If a very high American politician asks people to gather and burn all Bibles found in a town and they actually do it, what does Vatican think? Do they think this behavior as freedom of Speech?

I'm sure the Vatican wouldn't like it but they would pray for these sinners and not incite a riot.

 

[Isaac]

I really didn't expect this reply. Specially from a wise man like you.


Burning a holy book is not speech. It's deed, action or whatever you call it in English.
And when a political party's leader asks his follower to gather on a specific date to burn more holly books, it's a movement.
It's declaring war on Islam. Me and you are ashiest. It's our choice. But I believe our Freedom of Speech doesn't give us the right to burn Bible, or call for a gathering to burn all Qurans in the town just because we don't like its contents.


Are you trying to tell me it's fair to Burn Quran because the treatment of women under Islam is unacceptable?

Rapists have parental rights in seven states.
Sexual consent cannot be withdrawn in North Carolina.
In Michigan, a wife must obtain her husband’s permission before she can cut her hair.
A woman can be fired for a period leak in Georgia.
In North Carolina, a woman cannot withdraw consent and call subsequent actions ra**.
Women cannot wear sleeveless tops or dresses to Congress.

I'm sorry but most of those items are not true. You are reading stories about old laws that are no longer enforced and haven't been for a long time. It is just a matter of doing the paperwork to take them off the books but they don't bother to do it because courts have a long sense prevented them and they are no longer the law in any practical or actual sense.

It is very common for United States states to have things on the books that are far since obsolete but not technically removed from the paper yet. I'm not saying that that's good I'm just saying that's the way it is.

 

[Jon]

It is very common for United States states to have things on the books that are far since obsolete but not technically removed from the paper yet. I'm not saying that that's good I'm just saying that's the way it is.

Wasn't some Republican General charged by the FBI with some archaic law, during the Trump years? They tried to get him on something and that is all they had.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@KitaYama, to follow up on a fine point from the post by @Isaac - State legislatures are NOTORIOUS for ignoring old laws that are on the books but that could not be enforced even if such enforcement were attempted. It is a sad (but true) observation that legislatures don't CARE about old laws because there is no "glamor" (no notoriety or headlines) associated with "cleaning out the legislative trash." They want headlines on current events because that is what is in the public eye.

Which is why there used to be laws on the Massachusetts books that you could not write a check for less than 1 dollar. There were laws on the books in one of the Carolinas (can't recall if it was North or South) that automobiles could use a road but HAD to be preceded by man on a horse who carried a red flag as a warning. When you read about such laws with such absurd situations, you are probably reading an article by someone who wants to prod a particular legislature to "clean house." Or they are ridiculing (probably justifiably) the legislatures that won't take the time to clean up their own messes.

Now, as to the "women cannot wear sleeveless tops or dresses to Congress" law, ... considering some of the old hags who are IN congress, it is probably just as well that such attire WOULD be forbidden. Certain current members have more loose skin under their arms than a turkey wattle.

 

[Steve R.]

Wasn't some Republican General charged by the FBI with some archaic law, during the Trump years? They tried to get him on something and that is all they had.

You may be referring to General Flynn and the Logan Act (enacted January 30, 1799). Moreover, this gets into the whole issue of the origins of the Russia Hoax. The irony of Obama/Biden attempting to use the power-of-state to (illegally) persecute Flynn, ignores the fact that John Kerry (as a private citizen) attempted to negotiate with Iran which would be an actual violation of the Logan Act. Yet no one, to my knowledge, is attempting to charge Kerry with violating this law. A clear example of political bias to favor Democrats, but oppress Republicans.

Biden Suggested Logan Act Prosecution of Flynn

The Flynn prosecution was a hit against the Trump campaign and then the incoming Trump administration by the Obama administration and its minions in the FBI. We have just learned that it wa…

the-american-catholic.com

Michael Flynn’s lawyers say Joe Biden first raised the idea of the Logan Act in Flynn case

Michael Flynn’s attorneys said Wednesday former Vice President Joseph R. Biden discussed the Logan Act during an early January 2017 meeting about the investigation into President Trump’s former national security adviser.

www.washingtontimes.com

Kerry violates the Logan Act.

Kerry admits to meeting Iranian officials over nuclear deal

Former Secretary of State John Kerry admitted Wednesday that he’s met with top Iranian officials in hopes of salvaging the scrapped nuclear deal — as he slammed the Trump administration…

nypost.com

 

[JonXL]

It is NOT good, NOT acceptable that such symbols are defaced. Unfortunately, it is allowed and a nasty, uncouth minority do it to provoke.

Is this meant to be humor?

A world in which people aren't allowed to criticize religion is a world of crusades, inquisitions, witch trials and all the other evils organized state-sponsored religions have visited on this earth in attempt to preserve their illegitimate rule over the masses.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

@JonXL well, I suppose the people that do the defacing, think they have some legitimate reason.

So @JonXL , when you did it, what justification did you act under?

 

[AngelSpeaks]

Now, as to the "women cannot wear sleeveless tops or dresses to Congress" law, ... considering some of the old hags who are IN congress, it is probably just as well that such attire WOULD be forbidden. Certain current members have more loose skin under their arms than a turkey wattle.

Just thinking of Pelosi and Waters dressing like this is giving me nightmares!

 

[Pat Hartman]

Peaceful demonstrations and logical arguments don't make headlines so people take to violence like burning books and flags. I don't like it but it is far better than the BLM and Antifa methods of burning buildings and actively attempting to injure police officers.

Graffiti is also a form of violence. But in woke cities like Seattle (which used to be my favorite city in the US), the victim of the crime is fined rather than the perpetrator if the mess isn't cleaned up in a short time. How's that for logic? It is the up is down, in is out mantra of the left.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

---

the victim of the crime is fined rather than the perpetrator

That is so transparently because the victim is usually a person of substance, and more than likely of a republican mindset.

 

[Pat Hartman]

That is so transparently because the victim is usually a person of substance, and more than likely of a republican mindset.

That is also why the CDC somehow had the ability to enforce a non-existent law during COVID that prevented landlords from evicting tenants who didn't pay their rent. There was no proviso that the tenant actually had been laid off so people willing to game the system just started not paying their rent.

 

[JonXL]

So @JonXL , when you did it, what justification did you act under?

Did what?