The Qur'an (2 Viewers)

[aziz rasul]

Do any of these names conjure up the image of a prophet to you?

The following do.
Qur’an 4:171-2, Qur’an 5:75, Qur’an 61:6, Mark 6:4, John 6:14, John 7:40, John 9:17, Matthew 21:10-11 and Matthew 15:24.

Jesus (peace be upon him) the Maseeh.
Qur’an 3.45, John 1:41, John 4:25-26, John 10:24

 

[aziz rasul]

its practice authorized by the Qur'an.

You seem to have a lot of PENT UP HATE towards Islam but provide no Qur'anic evidence. Accusing the Qur'an of the allowance of ra** is a serious charge. I would have expected some references, otherwise it's just your opinion, which doesn't amount to much IMHO.

People of all faiths and none do bad things but you target Muslims only! Shame on you.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The explicit and accurate Qur'anic verses do indeed confirm biological facts.

But they do not confirm the existence of Allah. THAT is the direction of confirmation bias that I meant.

In fact why do western countries outlaw any acts of indecency by hetrosexuals and homesexuals.

We don't outlaw acts done in private between consenting adults. Many of the Middle Eastern nations outlaw just being a homosexual, whether practicing or not.

Well you have been doing just that and no one has stopped you, although you will be judged in the Hereafter. Since you don't believe in God, that shouldn't matter to you.

(A) No one has stopped me because in the USA, we have legal safeguards regarding freedom of speech, freedom of/from religion, and a few other freedoms. (B) We actually agree on something. Since I don't believe in a deity, the idea of a deity's judgment means nothing to me.

If you want to know what I actually believe, look in Ecclesiastes, starting in chapter 9, where it talks about the dead. The Old Testament describes death as a simple form of non-existence. No thought, no memory, no sensations, no awareness. I didn't exist 80 years ago and I won't exist 80 years from now. (More precise limits to be determined later.) Neither of those statements bothers me.

Your false accusations towards me are a real concern. If you had your way, you would probably lock me up or deport me.

I would neither lock you up nor deport you unless you had committed a crime worthy of such treatment. You asked me about family members but it applies to everyone. You would believe that if someone "has committed a crime in your country, then you should report it." I accuse you of following a religion that claims to be loving... but if you look more closely, that love only applies to other members of your religion. That is my only real accusation. Do you or don't you follow Islam? The rest of my comments are about Islam and its treatment of outsiders.

Well Islam IS the ONLY TRUE religion followed by ALL the Prophets.

True religion? Not if you believe that Muhammad was a drug user who wrote his beliefs after some crazy drug trips and not actually a holy person. And your statement is also not correct in historical context. The prophets who precede the time of Muhammad didn't follow Islam. They were either Christian or Jewish. Those who preceded the existence of the Qur'an cannot possibly have followed it. And finally, talk to followers of the Church of Latter Day Saints, who follow the time of the Qur'an. They believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet who led them to their beliefs which differ from those of Islam. So not ALL of the prophets. And if you choose to disbelieve in the validity of Joseph Smith as a prophet, don't get bent out of shape if we disbelieve the validity of Muhammad. We have a saying, "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."

for men and women who fast [and deny themselves], for men and women who guard their chastity,

Men seem to deny themselves less than women, since Islam allows a man to have four wives but a woman cannot have four husbands. When an Islamic man DOESN'T deny himself and violates a woman physically, she needs four witnesses. But when an Islamic man wants to condemn a woman for adultery, he doesn't need four witnesses. Yep, even treatment.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

People of all faiths and none do bad things but you target Muslims only! Shame on you.

Perhaps because I have seen the Muslims of the group from Hamas as they committed unspeakable acts of hatred against innocent children, as they hide behind civilians, as they hide in hospitals and then claim war crimes when the Israelis come after them. And other Muslims support them. When people of supposedly good character support others in the commission of one war crime after another, am I supposed to turn away and not see the horrors they inflict in the name of Allah? If this is what Allah allows, then do you wonder why I condemn Islam?

I have no shame in realizing that there are elements of Islam that are so violent that there is no living with them. I also know Muslims who were and are peace-loving people. But I am continually amazed that people who claim to love peace don't step in and curtail Hamas and Hezbollah and any other hate-filled groups like them.

We have crazy groups here, too, but in the USA we TRY to at least keep them from going rogue on us.

 

[Isaac]

Rational conclusions cannot be reached though comparisons of mythology.


None of this is recorded in history.

There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus from the time when he was supposed to be a person of note, let alone accounts of what supposedly happened to an obscure couple in barn in Bethlehem decades earlier, much less making the connection between the events. The gospels were written much later and their authorship is unclear.

The fact that otherwise rational people can take such nonsense seriously is testimony to the effectiveness of indoctrination of children.

The contemporary accounts are collected and we call them the Bible.

the fact that people began to focus on certain historical writings and attach religious meaning to them takes nothing away from their veracity as historical writings. Jesus was raised from the dead and seen by many. If you become a Christian, you'll become sure, as Christ becomes evident in your life. Believe me, there's a reason all the Christians are telling you "it's real". Because it is. Believe them. If they were making it up Christianity would be a tiny cult of 10 people, 9 of whom would come out of the cult and be on Dateline NBC the next year.

 

[Isaac]

Jesus was born of the virgin Mary unlike any other prophet. It matters not what Jesus believes. It wholly matters what his disciples believed and ultimately what we who have not seen with out own eyes believe.


That is a very big distinction that God insists you acknowledge, because it is through his only begotten Son's shed blood that any of us have any way to reunite with God at all. Even demons believe and know God exists, that is not the ticket to salvation or a way back to a proper relationship with God. God demands perfection, which is no sin, which none of us are capable of on our own. If you think you are capable of measuring up to God's perfect standard, then you have possibly not examined yourself well enough. Accepting the gift that God gave up his Son for the purpose of saving sinners and all you need to do is accept that gift via belief is all that God requires. Of course, you don't go on sinning as if nothing happened, your life is changed and you begin to grow spiritually. Your love for others should grow exponentially. There is no way for you to begin to achieve this without accepting the gift. Do you harbor any hatred or ill will for those that do not believe in God? Or hatred towards anyone for that matter? We are called to be filled with God's spirit and with that comes a massive amount of love for all who are oppressed, all who don't know what they don't know, and yes, even your perceived enemies. I say perceived, because you have a choice to see others as beings to be loved, indifferent, or (disliked/hated). That doesn't mean you love what someone does or doesn't do, you love them unconditionally in spite of their lost way.

There are a lot of people who consider themselves to be good people and I think that may be true superficially, but when you go deeper into the inner thoughts, there is a lot of evil thoughts that swirl around. Unfortunately, some of these thoughts seem not to be sins at all, but to God they are most definitely sin.


Ah, a small portion of the sermon on the mount. And after he rose from the dead and appeared to his followers, he said something much more important. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Do you know why? The crazy thing is even after seeing the risen Jesus, some still doubted.

Before this all happened and before he was crucified. Jesus said something to his followers they did not quite understand yet.


Now for the big question for you aziz:

Which person in history was born of a virgin and died on a cross to shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins?
Which person was the Son of God to those who witnessed his death and resurrection?

Here's what Thomas had to say about it as he did not see the risen Christ right away like the other disciples did. The man was not easy to convince without some extra proof. Notice he called him Lord and God after seeing and feeling the proof he requested for himself. Now why would he call him Lord and God if he wasn't just that?

Testify!

Islam brings people in by fear or force. Christians become joyously filled with meaning, direction, love.
People convert FROM islam TO christianity by the hundreds of thousands every year. The opposite does not happen. There is a reason.

 

[Galaxiom]

The contemporary accounts are collected and we call them the Bible.

The New Testament was not contemporary with the supposed existence of Jesus and its authors are unknown. There is zero evidence that it is any more than a complete work of fiction designed to claim that the prophecies of the Old Testament had been fulfilled. There are no verifiable accounts of Jesus until fifty years later.

The stories of people coming back to life are far fetched. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is none.

None of these things happen in modern times. Ask yourself why this god only revealed himself to ancient Hebrews and has never been seen since.

I don't expect you to accept these facts because you have too much invested in your faith.

 

[Isaac]

The New Testament was not contemporary with the supposed existence of Jesus and its authors are unknown. There is zero evidence that it is any more than a complete work of fiction designed to claim that the prophecies of the Old Testament had been fulfilled. There are no verifiable accounts of Jesus until fifty years later.

The stories of people coming back to life are far fetched. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is none.

None of these things happen in modern times. Ask yourself why this god only revealed himself to ancient Hebrews and has never been seen since.

I don't expect you to accept these facts because you have too much invested in your faith.

Actually tons of miracles still DO happen, that's why it's more rational to accept it as Truth. My own family and I have seen a number of miracles - they do happen in modern times.

50 oh my - that's nothing. If it was 50 years give or take from an Egyptian mummy you would take it as gospel truth, pun intended.
It's only a bias against Christianity or the Bible that prevents you from operating under the exact same standards in this case.

Ask yourself why Jews believing in Jesus under the Romans at that particular time may not have published works for all to see advertising themselves during the first few years..

 

[Isaac]

The mere fact that out of all people who don't believe in miracles, 90% of them wouldn't believe it even if they saw it tells you a LOT about the mental state of those people. It means that once we have decided something is not real, we won't believe even when/if we see it, we'll assume we're hallucinating or dreaming - which is actually far less rational than believing it once observed.

Rationality goes out the door with a negative assertion bias just as much or more than you believe it does with my positive assertion/belief.

 

[Mike Krailo]

God is a person but exalted above all others and is the source of all life and love. Jesus is a person and God's only begotten son that executed God's will on earth in it's entirety and without fail and has been now given all authority over all those that come to know him and follow his very clear example. All of this was prophesied in the scriptures before any of it actually happened but don't get hung up on it. The prophets before Christ and after are persons that have become spiritually mature and had deep connections with God on a personal level. All the humans on the planet are persons of various degrees of spiritual development and God would like to have a personal relationship with all that seek him out to improve their spiritual development. If you like science, math, astrophysics, or some other study that interests you, that's great. All of that is needed for technological advancements in the world, but we are not meant to stay here forever. This is just a learning ground to develop spiritually and eventually go on to do much greater things in eternity. Once the limiting nature of our current bodies are removed, it becomes obvious how important the spirit is. If you only see yourself as a body that lives for a span less than a hundred years, you will have no hope for the future and no desire to grow the spirit.

If you haven't figured it out yet, personal relationships are what we all love to have with those that love us the most. Who doesn't want to be loved? Same with family's, loving your spouse and children are really important. Any relationships with others outside the family can be just as enjoyable when there is an affinity between them. If not, all you can do is love those that need loving. There are no shortage of people that need Gods love. All the love that there is in the world comes directly from God and not any individual person. Your ability to do good comes from God the Father. Without his love, you got nothing. A nothing is really scary when you do a deep dive into it. If you don't know God and and love someone, that love still comes from God whether you are aware of it or not. We are all living in the grace of God and by his grace we have life. But not all are spiritually awake or have spiritual maturity. Those that reject the one who gives life and love will have very little to give others. Sure they have some by default, but not much. The benefit to being created in the image of God is that you do have some love to give by default. The spiritually mature, have a tremendous amount of love to give. It's not about religion. The Pharisees liked to flaunt there religion around like a badge of honor, but that is not love. They were missing the point of it all.

So God is a person. The difference with God is that he is transcendent in his wisdom, he has endless amounts of love, and is the source of light in his kingdom. It's not sun light, its God light, and anyone that experiences this light first hand will come to know how desirable it is be in that light and be loved in way that you can not possibly imagine here on earth. The key ingredient to reaching out to him from where we all are now is faith. That is the only necessity for the connection to be made. If you want an internet connection, you have to pay an internet provider, but making that connection with the creator of all that there is only takes the faith of a mustard seed to start the process. Ask him all that you wish to know and he will reveal it to you.

 

[Isaac]

its God light, and anyone that experiences this light first hand will come to know how desirable it is be in that light and be loved in way that you can not possibly imagine here on earth. The key ingredient to reaching out to him from where we all are now is faith.

Amen - bears repeating.

 

[aziz rasul]

But they do not confirm the existence of Allah. THAT is the direction of confirmation bias that I meant.

If you have scientific facts given 1400+ years which have only been recently discovered, it's clear to me it was not written by man and therefore it can only have come from God. We are all free to ACCEPT or REJECT as free will has been given to us by God.

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
Qur'an 109:1-6

We don't outlaw acts done in private between consenting adults. Many of the Middle Eastern nations outlaw just being a homosexual, whether practicing or not.

Islam does not allow punishment by the community towards those who commit indecencies (actual pen******on has to occur for maximum punishment) unless they are done in front of 4 witnesses (who must be of good character). In the west, you would probably need less witnesses to be punished.
When homosexuality is outlawed anywhere, it is assumed that the act is being committed in public. That is no different in Muslim countries. After all, what would the point be in placing a caveat of witnesses. That makes no sense. Your bias against Islam and Muslims clouds your views.

its treatment of outsiders.

You mean like this?

1 Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord.
2 Thus says the Lord of hosts: I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.
3 Now go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”
1 Samuel 15:1-3

God provides for both disbelievers and believers.

The prophets who precede the time of Muhammad didn't follow Islam.

ALL of God's Prophets SUBMITTED to God and hence WERE MUSLIMS as much as you dislike it.

Those who preceded the existence of the Qur'an cannot possibly have followed it.

19. Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allaah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allaah, then indeed, Allaah is swift in [taking] account.
84. Say, "We have believed in Allaah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
91. Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.
Qur’an 3:19, 84, 91

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the WILL of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

And if you choose to disbelieve in the validity of Joseph Smith as a prophet

Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.
Qur'an 33:40

since Islam allows a man to have four wives

This is to prevent single women who are outnumbered by men so that are also married to prevent promiscuity by men and women but also to give them financial protection. You need to investigate before you spout of.
If a woman married more then one husband, how would you know the father of the unborn child? Makes no sense and clearly all you do is give one liners but do no research in the matter. In other words, you are not striving for any truth.

violates a woman physically, she needs four witnesses. But when an Islamic man wants to condemn a woman for adultery, he doesn't need four witnesses. Yep, even treatment.

Again you have done zero research in the matter and care less about it.

Four witnesses are required in case a women wrongfully makes an accusation of ra**. A man who does, and there are no witnesses, he will still be held to account in the Hereafter and the women compensated by his good deeds being transferred to her in respect of the crime. No one gets off scot free. Similarly for all cases of adultery, 4 witnesses are required, HENCE EQUAL TREATMENT.

Interesting that you ONLY CONDEMN Muslims and no one else. You clearly don't have any empathy for Muslims.

How can you possibly know what Allaah allows, you never stay long enough to investigate.

 

[aziz rasul]

I have no shame in realizing that there are elements of Islam that are so violent that there is no living with them.

15. “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to DEATH.
17. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to DEATH.
20. And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall NOT BE PUNISHED: for he is his money.
Exodus 21:15, 17, 20-21

For God COMMANDED, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely DIE.’
Matthew 15:4

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a SWORD.
35 For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
37 "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:34-7

8. Keep my DECREES and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
9. "'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.
Leviticus 20:9

But I am continually amazed that people who claim to love peace don't step in and curtail Hamas and Hezbollah and any other hate-filled groups like them.

But I am continually amazed that people who claim to love peace don't step in and curtail the IDF and Americans and any other hate-filled groups like them.

Isaac, the earliest copy of the new testament was printed in the 4th century, hence you have no idea what was there in the 1st century. Also it is man made and did not come from God unlike the Injil that was given to Jesus by God via Gabriel, the angel of revelation.

because it is through his only begotten Son's

There is NO begotten son of God.

God demands perfection

I disagree.

God gave up his Son for the purpose of saving sinners

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Ezekiel 18:20

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

And after he rose from the dead and appeared to his followers,

Who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
I Timothy 6:16

Your love for others should grow exponentially.

massive amount of love for all who are oppressed

Is that why the US are supporting genocide because of ever growing love?

Before this all happened and before he was crucified.

Now for the big question for you aziz:

He wasn't crucified.

157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allaah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no
knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
158. But Allaah took him up unto Himself. Allaah was ever Mighty, Wise.
159. There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
160 Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allaah's way,
Qur'an 4:157-160

Which person in history was born of a virgin and died on a cross to shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins?

Which person was the Son of God to those who witnessed his death and resurrection?

No one.

1. This “King Melchizedek of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he was returning from defeating the kings and blessed him”;
2. and to him Abraham apportioned “one-tenth of everything.” His name, in the first place, means “king of righteousness”; next he is also king of Salem, that is, “king of peace.”
3. Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Hebrews 7:3
If Melchizedek has no Father or Mother, then that makes him better than Jesus (peace be upon him). How can this be?

People convert FROM islam TO christianity by the hundreds of thousands every year. The opposite does not happen. There is a reason.

That's incorrect. Many more disbelievers have REVERTED to Islam than vice versa. You know that full well, much as may deny it.

 

[Isaac]

Many more disbelievers have REVERTED to Islam than vice versa.

That is one of the most obviously untrue things I've ever heard and I don't think anyone is being fooled by it. I have never even heard of someone converting from Christianity to Islam although I'm sure it happens occasionally, whereas hundreds of thousands go the other direction every year or so .

Although in places like Eritrea your religion does its best to torture and deter them but it does not deter them anyway.

 

[aziz rasul]

A web search will tell you that what I have said IS TRUE. Remain in denial.

Although in places like Eritrea your religion does its best to torture and deter them but it does not deter them anyway.

What about the Crusaders and the KKK and the current Palestinian annihilation? In fact in the past, whenever Christians came, any Jews living there went with the Muslims e.g., Spain.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Aziz, you are aware that the disciples asked Jesus what the greatest law was? And he told them. It is clearly the most important take away to uphold and be a light to the world. It definitely was not to be the most religious person you can be. We all know what Jesus thought about the pharisees. They removed themselves from others (the unlcean ones), unlike Jesus who walked among them and comforted them. Sure they knew the law of Moses, but they did not themselves apply it in real life. Knowledge is power only if you use it.

29 Jesus said to him, “The greatest Law is this, ‘Listen, Jewish people, The Lord our God is one Lord! 30 You must love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ This is the first Law.

31 “The second Law is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other Law is greater than these.”

In other words, allow Gods love to flow through you to others so it will honor God. This is what he himself does best. This is not a game of who is the most knowledgeable about the Qur'an or Bible or how religious you are. If that is what it's all about, not many will want to have anything to do with it. Yes, the path is narrow. But don't over complicate it. It's not that complicated.

What about the Crusaders and the KKK and the current Palestinian annihilation? In fact in the past, whenever Christians came, any Jews living there went with the Muslims e.g., Spain.

What about them? Like you said yourself, there were many that do bad things in the name of religion or God. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. Obviously, not good fruit coming from those groups. I don't see a current Palestinian annihilation, do you? I am not there, are you? Propaganda on what is going on is all over the place, but from what I understand, Israel is trying to punish those who attacked them or supported the attackers without punishing those who are innocent. Not an easy task. I could be wrong, I'm not there. Do you support Hamas going into Israel to attack the innocent? What does the Qur'an say about people that attack your nation?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

We come back to the basic premise, Aziz, and that is that you can quote anything you want. But if I don't accept the veracity of the source, nothing you quote will make a difference. I know that you are a person who devoutly believes in Islam. I understand and actually accept that you made that choice. It was yours to make. My choice is to not accept Islam. You said we all have free will. I've told you the direction I take.

ALL of God's Prophets SUBMITTED to God and hence WERE MUSLIMS as much as you dislike it.

The ones who died before the birth of Islam didn't, as much as YOU dislike it.

But there is another factor here. Your religion includes the books of the Bible as at least a part of itself. But that Bible makes it clear that anyone who attempts to remove or add to the Bible commits a sin. Muhammad therefore was a major sinner who tried to explain away the Bible's verses that declare IT to be complete by denying the testimony of the Gospels.

 

[ColinEssex]

I saw a miracle once. A mate of mine renowned for being as tight as a duck's a**e bought a round.
Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I saw a miracle once. A mate of mine renowned for being as tight as a duck's a**e bought a round.
Col

Some miracles are more believable than others. But if I believe you, does that mean I have to acknowledge you as a prophet?

 

[conception_native_0123]

does that mean I have to acknowledge you as a prophet

colin is not a prophet. he is a duck's a**e.