The Qur'an

[aziz rasul]

Because Islam is too full of hate to stop killing those who publicly disagree with them and thus triggers further armed conflicts.

Why no mention of the killing by non Muslims, which is the majority? You see how you as a disbeliever show no fairness despite what you say. This shows the hypocrisy. You don't believe any justice. This reinforces the predictive behaviour of disbelievers like you.

Sorry to disappoint you, but kufr (=disbelief) actually isn't bitter at all.

It is as far as Islam is concerned. That is why kaafirs will end up in HELL.

71. And those who DISBELIEVED will be driven to HELL in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of PUNISHMENT has come into effect upon the DISBELIEVERS.
72. [To them] it will be said, "Enter the gates of HELL to abide ETERNALLY therein, and WRETCHED is the residence of the ARROGANT."
Qur'an 39:71-72

46. The FIRE, they are exposed to it morning and evening. And the Day the Hour appears [it will be said], "Make the people of Pharaoh enter the severest punishment."
49. And those in the FIRE will say to the keepers of HELL, "Supplicate your Lord to lighten for us a day from the PUNISHMENT."
50. They will say, "Did there not come to you your messengers with clear proofs?" They will say, "Yes." They will reply, "Then supplicate [yourselves], but the supplication of the DISBELIEVERS is not except in error."
70. Those who DENY the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers - they are going to know,
71. When the SHACKLES are around their NECKS and the chains; they will be dragged
72. In BOILING water; then in the FIRE they will be filled [with FLAME].
Qur'an 40:46, 49-50, 70-72

All I have to worry about is what people would do ...

You need to worry about what the angels of punishment will do and we have recently seen what "hateful" jews\zionists\christians are prepared to do. Kill children and women and the elderly and the mentally retarded... etc.

.. infidels ...

Infidels is not an Islamic word but a word invented by christians to refer to non christians. Get you facts right. Christians used the term infidel to describe those perceived as the enemies of Christianity. The western media introduced this word to denote non-Muslims. This word does not appear in the Qur'an. The word to denote disbelievers is Kaafir i.e. those who know the truth but cover it up within themselves and to others. That is why Kaafirs will spend eternity in HELL as they knew the truth and rejected it. Good luck with that. You won't be "laughing" there. LOOL.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Kaafir i.e. those who know the truth but cover it up within themselves

As opposed to those of us who know the truth?

There is no Allah or any other supernatural deity and EVERY death is final. You do, in fact, go with your gods, since they don't exist either. But there is no pain or joy, no awareness. You cease to exist when your brain can no longer sustain its internal electrical operations. The light goes out.

If you look at Ecclesiastes 9:5 and a few more verses behind it, that is all you need to know. No avenging, angry, authoritarian figure looks over your shoulder. There is no need to give in to the paranoia engendered by all of this "God" or "Allah" "watches over you and will judge you for your deeds." Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Isaac]

So why does the Bible say otherwise?

20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be their own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be their own.
21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them, for the righteousness that they have done they shall live.
Ezekiel 18:20-22

Google/study the old vs. new testament, an the prohesies that Jesus fulfilled to make it more clear why the old testament references a legalistic framework and the new testament is all about grace.

 

[Jon]

It is as far as Islam is concerned. That is why kaafirs will end up in HELL.

I see this as a big problem. If the Quaran says kaafirs will end up in hell, Muslims believe these are the actual righteous words of God. Therefore, anyone who is a non-Muslim *deserves* to go to hell. It is God's will. There is no respect for others religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs. Instead, it is tatamount to hate speech towards those non-Muslims. It is the same as saying, "You deserve a life of unbearable suffering for an eternity when you die." If you think someone deserves to go to hell, what does that say about how they will view you?

What do others think on this?

 

[Isaac]

I see this as a big problem. If the Quaran says kaafirs will end up in hell, Muslims believe these are the actual righteous words of God. Therefore, anyone who is a non-Muslim *deserves* to go to hell. It is God's will. There is no respect for others religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs. Instead, it is tatamount to hate speech towards those non-Muslims. It is the same as saying, "You deserve a life of unbearable suffering for an eternity when you die." If you think someone deserves to go to hell, what does that say about how they will view you?

What do others think on this?

Jon I see what you mean, but you have to remember from the perspective of the person who actually believes it's true, it seems somewhat moot, i.e. a waste of energy, to try to analyze what is by what we wish was.

Imagine there are signs of a volcano, which some people believe and some don't. Imagine the people who don't believe accusing the people who do believe of being 'mean' - i.e., "I can't believe you're telling me something so awful - that hot lava is about to come out and burn me alive! That's absolutely horrific, away from me, you hateful person". The other person would just furrow their brows, like ... "What? I'm just telling you the way it IS - I didn't make this system up".

I see the problem as a believer telling you what they believe God has put into being, and your mistake is thinking that the believer him/herself put that into being and somehow wished it all into the way they are describing.

For me and my house, there is enough evidence both historical and present in my life to confirm God's existence. I may have many questions about why this and that, but I oughtn't confuse wish with IS if I want the best outcome. It has nothing to do with what the believer thinks someone deserves. God says that to reject Him is to choose eternity without Him. I believe that's true, and I believe that deep down, everyone knows it's true at some point or another in their life, but they choose to suppress and push that down and away so as not to have to feel accountable for it.

That may be the underlying reason that it upsets some people so much. If they knew for sure it was false, they would just laugh and probably even pity the deceived person saying these things .... Right?? If I pass a crazy guy on the street corner on my way to work that says the aliens are coming tomorrow to eat you alive - IF I feel certain it's not true, then I'm totally comfortable patting him on the shoulder and wishing him well, maybe even a couple dollars to boot.
It is only if secretly I have misgivings, and know that perhaps it IS true .... then I am upset at him for bringing something back into my consciousness that I had been trying to suppress, mostly successfully.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

What do others think on this?

In 4th grade (elementary school level), one of my classmates learned that I was not Catholic. At the time, I was Methodist. That kid told me that because I wasn't Catholic, I was going to burn in Hell for all eternity. Muslims aren't the only ones who indoctrinate their kids with hatred of those who are not "of the faith." Which is why I added comments to the thread that my disdain for religion wasn't selective.

There is no respect for others religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs.

I have found that in many religions. Southern Baptists are another group that can be pretty seriously judgmental. Right now the Methodists (my parents' religion) are undergoing a major split over LGBTQ+ treatment. And today's newspaper said that priests cannot perform same-sex marriages but they CAN bless same-sex couples. I didn't read the whole article but it was interesting because I can see yet another controversy springing up over a "progressive" pope who was TRYING for a touch more inclusion than was present before.

The problem with this cross-religion condemnation is that something that SHOULD be a unifying force isn't, and hasn't been for a long time. Both Isaac and Adam have their deep religious beliefs, which is fine with me. But both have at times played the "condemned to Hell" card in past discussions. To which I simply reply, "Nope."

I see the problem as a believer telling you what they believe God has put into being, and your mistake is thinking that the believer him/herself put that into being and somehow wished it all into the way they are describing.

The weak point in this, Isaac, is that you are uttering words of condemnation for something that you cannot prove even exists. Yes, you believe it. I see that and acknowledge that it is your belief. But if you are a skeptic, then you are condemning someone despite skepticism. If I'm going to make a permanent enemy, I'd want to be sure that I'm right. For a religion that claims to be based on love but ALSO is based on faith rather than proof, you are making a LOT of assumptions to be telling someone they will burn in Hell.

I've been to Hell, thanks. The torment of watching my mother degenerate into the living darkness of Alzheimer's Disease was bad enough, but when my father died, I became her sole caregiver and watched every step downwards, helpless to stop it and with no shoulders to cry on. At the time, I didn't even have a lady friend. I didn't dare take time off for a vacation. I had to turn down a BIG promotion where I worked because I knew I couldn't travel as the job would have required. I seriously considered suicide. I understood misery.

This was the time when I turned to the Bible for help, comfort, and solace - only to find all of the words empty, generic, and not at all helpful. When I read the Bible under those circumstances, that is when I found it to be misunderstood. I realized the Bible didn't tell me about God. It told me the beliefs of people who believed in God - i.e. second-hand smoke. And I couldn't even inhale because it all dissolved once I reached that understanding. I was reading just another book on mythology. There is nothing quite so wrenching as to realize that your own parents propagated the deception because they didn't know any better either.

Once I reached that understanding, though, the "big guy always looking over my shoulder" feeling disappeared, once and for all. It was truly liberating to realize that I could judge myself without that perpetual second-guessing of whether the "eye in the sky" was going to hold me accountable for a lusty thought or a marginally unkind word now and then.

I don't have to "wish away" the fate you describe, Isaac, because - like Voodoo - you have to believe in it first. Otherwise it has NO power over you. The "afterlife" beliefs that are common to many religions are just - in my opinion - people wishing away what THEY don't want to happen, even though there is a very simple description in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and a few more verses regarding death - as non-existence. I have been that way (and so have you). Before you were conceived, you were non-existent. After you die you will be non-existent. There is a certain symmetry to it. All that talk of Heaven, Elysium, Gehenna, Hell, Valhalla, etc. are just people wishing and hoping that death doesn't lead to non-existence because that frightens them with its ultimate finality. But there is nothing to fear in death. It is dying that might be a bit ugly. But once you are done, you are DONE. No pain, no torment, no suffering, no memory... no awareness at all. Nothing.

 

[Jon]

Very articulate Doc.

 

[Isaac]

In 4th grade (elementary school level), one of my classmates learned that I was not Catholic. At the time, I was Methodist. That kid told me that because I wasn't Catholic, I was going to burn in Hell for all eternity. Muslims aren't the only ones who indoctrinate their kids with hatred of those who are not "of the faith." Which is why I added comments to the thread that my disdain for religion wasn't selective.



I have found that in many religions. Southern Baptists are another group that can be pretty seriously judgmental. Right now the Methodists (my parents' religion) are undergoing a major split over LGBTQ+ treatment. And today's newspaper said that priests cannot perform same-sex marriages but they CAN bless same-sex couples. I didn't read the whole article but it was interesting because I can see yet another controversy springing up over a "progressive" pope who was TRYING for a touch more inclusion that was present before.

The problem with this cross-religion condemnation is that something that SHOULD be a unifying force isn't, and hasn't been for a long time. Both Isaac and Adam have their deep religious beliefs, which is fine with me. But both have at times played the "condemned to Hell" card in past discussions. To which I simply reply, "Nope."



The weak point in this, Isaac, is that you are uttering words of condemnation for something that you cannot prove even exists. Yes, you believe it. I see that and acknowledge that it is your belief. But if you are a skeptic, then you are condemning someone despite skepticism. If I'm going to make a permanent enemy, I'd want to be sure that I'm right. For a religion that claims to be based on love but ALSO is based on faith rather than proof, you are making a LOT of assumptions to be telling someone they will burn in Hell.

I've been to Hell, thanks. The torment of watching my mother degenerate into the living darkness of Alzheimer's Disease was bad enough, but when my father died, I became her sole caregiver and watched every step downwards, helpless to stop it and with no shoulders to cry on. At the time, I didn't even have a lady friend. I didn't dare take time off for a vacation. I had to turn down a BIG promotion where I worked because I knew I couldn't travel as the job would have required. I seriously considered suicide. I understood misery.

This was the time when I turned to the Bible for help, comfort, and solace - only to find all of the words empty, generic, and not at all helpful. When I read the Bible under those circumstances, that is when I found it to be misunderstood. I realized the Bible didn't tell me about God. It told me the beliefs of people who believed in God - i.e. second-hand smoke. And I couldn't even inhale because it all dissolved once I reached that understanding. I was reading just another book on mythology. There is nothing quite so wrenching as to realize that your own parents propagated the deception because they didn't know any better either.

Once I reached that understanding, though, the "big guy always looking over my shoulder" feeling disappeared, once and for all. It was truly liberating to realize that I could judge myself without that perpetual second-guessing of whether the "eye in the sky" was going to hold me accountable for a lusty thought or a marginally unkind word now and then.

I don't have to "wish away" the fate you describe, Isaac, because - like Voodoo - you have to believe in it first. Otherwise it has NO power over you. The "afterlife" beliefs that are common to many religions are just - in my opinion - just people wishing away what THEY don't want to happen, even though there is a very simple description in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and a few more verses regarding death - as non-existence. I have been that way (and so have you). Before you were conceived, you were non-existent. After you die you will be non-existent. There is a certain symmetry to it. All that talk of Heaven, Elysium, Gehenna, Hell, Valhalla, etc. are just people wishing and hoping that death doesn't lead to non-existence because that frightens them with its ultimate finality. But there is nothing to fear in death. It is dying that might be a bit ugly. But once you are done, you are DONE. No pain, no torment, no suffering, no memory... no awareness at all. Nothing.

I just disagree with the characterizations of "you're condemning" and "you're" - this and that.

If someone warns you of a lethal danger, they are not "condemning you to death". They're trying to help you.

Your complaint makes sense from your perspective, since because there is no God, therefore, they are my words and mine alone.
Your complaint doesn't make sense from the believer's perspective, because he is simply encouraging you to conform to something that simply IS - whether we like it or not

Again, if someone warns you of a lethal danger, they are not "condemning you to death". They're trying to help you.
I can understand that we disagree about the lethal danger, Okay, but you'll never convince a believer that they're the ones condeming you when they believe they're simply warning you about something that is. Not something that's negotiable depending on how we feel about it.

PS .. I think nonbelievers focus too much on the 'blame' aspect of it. I'm not here to say that I'm better than anyone else because of my Christianity. That viewpoint is a fundamental misconception, and a common one, of unbelievers. It's not about believers thinking they're better than you, it's just the opposite in fact. I need my faith in Jesus because otherwise I am nothing but a sinner at my core until Jesus gives me His righteousness to clothe myself with. It's not about somebody better than somebody, or condemnation, it's about we are ALL sinners apart from His grace, and we ALL must accept that grace, and the more people I encourage to do that, a few more might be saved, which I wish for their sake - not because I am somehow getting credit for it.

Think about that for a few moments. If I'm not doing this because of some kind of compensation, and I don't think I'm better than you (frankly I'm quite the uncontrolled turd without Christ and even sometimes in my Christian walk), then what else is left? Ponder it a bit and let me know your thoughts. Why else am I doing this, and why is it so hard for you to see it as anything except condemnation? Condemnation for what? Is there an innate sense of guilt in us that assumes everyone is condemning us? If so, why and Who put it there?

 

[conception_native_0123]

Ain't gonna happen

what a disappointment richard.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Again, if someone warns you of a lethal danger, they are not "condemning you to death". They're trying to help you.

There is a certain irony in your choice of words. "Lethal" danger? Well OF COURSE there is lethality there - because you have to die to go either to Heaven or Hell or non-existence.

Isaac, I try to show respect to all here. So I acknowledge that you believe you are trying to do me a favor. But you are not, because you are ALSO denying that I could possibly have known what I was doing when I abandoned a faith that never helped me once. Inherent in ALL of this is your own religious belief that your God must be a PERSONAL choice. I studied the Bible a lot and found some interesting advice in the book of Esdras (which is in the Apocrypha, not the main part.) The first three chapters of Esdras tell of his dreams in which he reports that when you die, you go by yourself to stand before God. Nobody else is there to help. It's all on you. For you to continue to push is to deny me MY personal choice. For Aziz to condemn me AND YOU (since YOU aren't Muslim either) is a case of him being so arrogant as to think that HIS choice is better than either of ours. You also think I've made a bad choice and that Aziz is also guilty of that same infraction - not believing you YOUR deity.

I remember some of the quotes of Ambrose Bierce, a writer and journalist of some fame over 100 years ago. His "Devil's Dictionary" held many definitions that still have some meaning today.

"Religion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable."

"Scriptures: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."

"Pray: To ask the laws of the universe to be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."

"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by someone who speaks without knowledge of things without parallel."

"Inadmissible: Not competent to be considered. Hearsay evidence is inadmissible ... but there is no religion in the world that has any other basis than hearsay evidence."

"Present: That part of eternity dividing the domain of disappointment from the realm of hope."

"Christian: One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor."

"Heathen: A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel."

(EDITED BY THE_DOC_MAN to correct a misquote.)

"Die: To stop sinning suddenly."

Bierce was noted for being a bit acerbic in both meanings of the word... sharp AND bitter.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

what a disappointment

Yet you've known my attitude for a long time, Adam. Are you seriously surprised?

 

[conception_native_0123]

not really richard. you just said it so "sharply", that's all. by the way, did you know that Mark Zuckerberg is an atheist too?

 

[ebs17]

it's about we are ALL sinners apart from His grace, and we ALL must accept that grace

I am an avowed unbeliever and atheist. When I was about 10 years old, I left Christian teaching of my own free will, and I never regretted it and I never missed anything.

Why do you claim that I am a sinner and that I have violated commandments that I do not accept? Why do I need to be saved? My world is fine.
I help people and receive praise. I annoy people and get blamed. Everything from people who can judge it, more or less.

I can very well understand @The_Doc_Man opinion.
I am tolerant of people and religions that are tolerant of me. Anyone who wants to proselytize me is not tolerant. If the life of the "missionary" were so outstanding, everyone of other faiths would be overrun with flying colors, they would never need pressure for being saved from hell or failing to enter heaven (as a dead person).
No, I live my life here and now. Postponing the reward for good and the punishment for bad until AFTER death is irregular.

I'm not afraid of death. For me as an organism it is then over, but all of my atoms have immortality and will continue to exist as dust or as parts of any bacteria, animals or plants or even brilliant people, regardless of whether I am burned or decay in the ground or are eaten by animals . We are made of stardust, and stardust has many ways of surviving.
I am a momentary state of some stardust.

 

[Darrell]

I'm not afraid of death.

The more I read this thread the more I welcome it

 

[conception_native_0123]

The more I read this thread the more I welcome it

and I was hopeful you would never put any word in...

 

[Darrell]

and I was hopeful you would never put any word in...

Guess we both have to put up with some level of disappointment then

 

[Isaac]

I am an avowed unbeliever and atheist. When I was about 10 years old, I left Christian teaching of my own free will, and I never regretted it and I never missed anything.

Why do you claim that I am a sinner and that I have violated commandments that I do not accept? Why do I need to be saved? My world is fine.
I help people and receive praise. I annoy people and get blamed. Everything from people who can judge it, more or less.

I can very well understand @The_Doc_Man opinion.
I am tolerant of people and religions that are tolerant of me. Anyone who wants to proselytize me is not tolerant. If the life of the "missionary" were so outstanding, everyone of other faiths would be overrun with flying colors, they would never need pressure for being saved from hell or failing to enter heaven (as a dead person).
No, I live my life here and now. Postponing the reward for good and the punishment for bad until AFTER death is irregular.

I'm not afraid of death. For me as an organism it is then over, but all of my atoms have immortality and will continue to exist as dust or as parts of any bacteria, animals or plants or even brilliant people, regardless of whether I am burned or decay in the ground or are eaten by animals . We are made of stardust, and stardust has many ways of surviving.
I am a momentary state of some stardust.

Keep following those questions and keep hacking away at your personal definition of Tolerant. Everyone seems to have their own, you might as well. People try to convince me I'm using the wrong dishwasher, bought the wrong pickup truck, not doing marriage or parenting their favorite way, etc. But I don't consider those-who-try-convince-me Intolerant, it just is the engaging world we live in.

However, I realize some people are more easily offended and with these come the large umbrella definitions usually

 

[AccessBlaster]

"Muslims Worldwide Throw a Fit over Israeli Bomb-Sniffing Dog Named after Mohammed’s Child Bride Aisha"

-That's Trump level trolling right there.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Don't blame the dog, he didn't name himself.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

In all fairness, it IS a nice name. It also has literary history. H. Rider Haggard, the author of King Solomon's Mines, also wrote a novel about an incredibly beautiful queen, a woman named Ayesha, which is an alternate transliteration of Aisha. The story was She! (Who Must Not Be Named). In fact, there was a series of novels that introduced us to Allen Quartermain, a "lost world" adventurer. The She novel is part of that series.