The Qur'an

[The_Doc_Man]

The Qur'an is the LAST Testament from God, so the Book of Mormon doesn't count as it came afterwards.

The contribution of Muhammad came after the end of the Bible so it doesn't count. The Bible had already said that whoever adds to or takes away from the books is wrong and will be condemned. DEUT 4:2 "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." And a different but equal warning in REV 22:18-19, "(18) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. (19) And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

Since the Bible is supposedly included in the Quran, that means that it contains its own proof that Muhammad was plagued and lost his share in the tree of life in the Holy City.

 

[aziz rasul]

The contribution of Muhammad came after the end of the Bible so it doesn't count.

Wrong, the Qur'an says that it is the final message, it is on that basis that the book of Mormon doesn't count. The Bible, doesn't say that a new Scripture will not come afterwards. That's the difference. I should have mentioned that in my original reply.

The Bible verses you are mentioning refer to the individual Scripture itself. The Rabbis indeed changed the Torah as I have already said in this thread. That's why those who changed the earlier Scriptures will have to answer for it.

Since the Bible is supposedly included in the Quran,

Some aspects of past history and lessons are included by the same God in His final Book the Qur'an, which has remained unchanged since it was compiled and memorized. So the whole Bible per say is not included in the Qur'an so your last assertion doesn't make any sense. The Qur'an makes corrections to what is in the Bible. For example God does NOT rest as the Bible suggests. Moses (peace be upon him) did NOT break the TEN Commandments tablets as the Bible does, the Qur'an does not contain any contradictions as the Bible does, etc. etc.

 

[conception_native_0123]

You can treat people with respect even if you disagree with them.

I agree with you Paul. I take it back. thanks for correcting me.

 

[conception_native_0123]

I will keep reminding you of HELL

great. more images in my head to look forward to! =(

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I have reached the conclusion that it is clearly hopeless. Aziz, with no disrespect intended, it is pointless to argue with you. You have convinced me that to argue religion with you is a lost cause because you have been totally brainwashed by Islam. I wish you well but have wasted enough time.

People comment on how a religious message is often intended to try to save someone from a terrible fate. For that reason, I acknowledge your intent. I have to say, "Thanks but no, thanks." You see, my messages are ALSO intended to save people from a terrible fate. Because if I am right, then your religion robs you of the only thing you really have on this world... time. Time wasted in prayer and ritual dedicated to a non-existent being whose very description makes it impossible for God to exist.

Good luck, Aziz, in your future.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I asked whether you believed that the Bible has any contradictions, you gave no answer.

I gave you something better to focus on that cannot just be waved away as something other than God did himself. BTW, there are no contradictions in the bible, I have seen all the one's that Muslims love to point out as if that somehow proves the bible is corrupted, but no such corruption exists. The gospels are very credible testimonies preserved by the holy spirit. And although they were not recorded right away, the oral tradition back then was very strong and people had very sharp memories unlike the weak minded people today that don't even know their own phone number without looking it up in their phone. The Quran on the other hand was written much later and has no accurate account of of the most important event in all of human history. The book of Hebrews was written way before the Quran.

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So your response to the fact that there is coded math algorithm tied into the bible's English KJV version as already pointed out is man made? Are you even paying attention? It's amazing to me that anyone even found the coding let alone that it's there and the staggering statistical impossibility of it just being a random thing.

 

[conception_native_0123]

you have been totally brainwashed by Islam

LIKE.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I'm not following, and have no intention of getting deeply involved in this ..... So I'm stopping here!!!!

There is nothing deep about it at all. It took me 20 minutes to confirm all except the last encoding that turned up the 77777 number that runs through an over all search of all the key words based on the first and last verses of the bible. You have to have that searchable bible software which I do not have. I thought the video was pretty straight forward though. What are the odds that this is some random occurrence?

 

[Galaxiom]

What are the odds that this is some random occurrence?

Far greater than the odds of there being gods behind it.

 

[aziz rasul]

great. more images

In your case, I would rather God did the talking. That way, you can't, on the Day of Judgement, say you were never warned of the impending DOOM. as you clearly have been brainwashed against Islam.

50. And the companions of the Fire will call to the companions of Paradise, "Pour upon us some water or from whatever Allah has provided you." They will say, "Indeed, Allah has forbidden them both to the disbelievers."
51. Who took their religion as distraction and amusement and whom the worldly life deluded." So today We will forget them just as they forgot the meeting of this Day of theirs and for having rejected Our verses.
52. And We had certainly brought them a Book which We detailed by knowledge - as guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
53. Do they await except its result? The Day its result comes those who had ignored it before will say, "The messengers of our Lord had come with the truth, so are there [now] any intercessors to intercede for us or could we be sent back to do other than we used to do?" They will have lost themselves, and lost from them is what they used to invent.
Qur'an 7:50-53

 

[aziz rasul]

because you have been totally brainwashed by Islam.

You have been brainwashed against Islam. I have tried to save you from reaching the fire, but to no avail.

As far as the rituals are concerned, which you believe is a waste of time, they are a method by which we submit to God and thus enter Paradise. Those who enter Hell won't think it's a waste of time then.

Salah (prayer) does not simply require praying at the correct times, but to temporaily disconnect from the world and connect body and soul daily, at all times of the day, with God through prayer in a submissive, respectful, concentrated (khushoo) and devoted way, not proud or arrogant. This then has the effect to increase the piety and God-consciousness (taqwa) of the Muslim and hence acts as a shield from committing sins, insha-allaah.

O ye who believe! bow down, prostrate yourselves, and adore your Lord; and do good; that ye may prosper.
Qur’an – Surah al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage) 22:77 See also Psalm 95:6.

O mankind! Worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:21

And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allaah: for Allaah sees Well all that ye do.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:110

And seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is heavy except for those who humble themselves before Allaah.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:45

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allaah is the [final] destination.
Qur’an - Surah Fatir (The Creator) 35:18

In the Name of Allaah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Praise be to Allaah, Lord of all Creation,
The Beneficent, the Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgment,
Thee alone we worship; Thee alone we beseech for help.
Show us the straight path,
The path of those whom You have favoured (the Muslims); not the (path) of those who have incurred [Your] displeasure (referring to the Jews), nor those who have gone astray (referring to the Christians).
Qur’an - Surah al-Fatiha (The Opening) 1:1-7 Compare Psalm 5 verse 8.

 

[aziz rasul]

I gave you something better to focus on that cannot just be waved away

As I said that the numerical miracle can only be based on authentic non contradictory Scripture from God, so it can't be something better.

Of course God produced miracles through His Scriptures, but if man has corrupted most of them, the what. God gave the previous Scriptures to man to take care which they didn't. In the case of the Qur'an, God said He Himself would preserve it from corruption, hence it hasn't changed for 14 centuries when it was revealed

BTW, there are no contradictions in the bible

.
Different accounts of Judas's death
Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:5
Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. Acts 1:18

Compare genealogy in the following two verses regarding the name of Joseph's (Mary's (peace be upon her) husband) father.
and JACOB the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah. Matthew 1:16
Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of HELI, Luke 3:23

Numerical inaccuracy - Age of Ahaziah
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign; he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri. 2 Chronicles 22:2
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign; he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, a granddaughter of King Omri of Israel. 2 Kings 8:26

I can go on, if you wish. You even have different versions of the Bible and different number of books in those versions.

The Quran on the other hand was written much later and has no accurate account of of the most important event in all of human history.

Pray tell what that was before making a statement like that?

The book of Hebrews was written way before the Quran.

What does that prove? The NT was written many centuries after the Torah. I don't see the relevance of when God's Scripture was written. What's important is that it comes from God. The NT was given by God but written by man.

Are you even paying attention?

Yes, that's why I gave you the pre-conditions (which the Bible doesn't meet) before you can make a song and dance about the numerical miracles.

 

[conception_native_0123]

on the Day of Judgement

per Christ:

"those who believe in me shall not taste death, but obtain everlasting life"

 

[conception_native_0123]

oh, and to add to that....Christ is king of king, and lord of lords. The Qu'ran doesn't mean shit. and richard, stay out of this one, huh? I read that you gave up anyway.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

You have been brainwashed against Islam. I have tried to save you from reaching the fire, but to no avail.

No, I WAS brainwashed in my youth. For a while I was a Protestant. And then I opened my eyes and really LOOKED at what religion tried to tell me. All it takes to see the truth is to read the Bible or Quran with a questioning mind rather than a gullible one.

American humorist Mark Twain wrote: "The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."

Ambrose Bierce, an American journalist, once offered this definition: Scriptures - The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Pray tell what that was before making a statement like that?

That's my point, the historical Jesus account is not accurately portrayed in the Quran, because if it was you would be a Christian and not a Muslim. You follow a Muhamad who isn't even mentioned one single time in any of the biblical text. Then you clearly deny Gods very own messiah and his holy spirit poured out to all of his disciples who were responsible for preserving the accounts unto their deaths. The holy spirt was given to all those who follow Christ and no other.

That's not your fault though. It's all because of religious traditions and Muslim religious scholars that actually read the bible realized there were many contradictions between the Quran and God's holy word in the Bible. They didn't know how to resolve it other than making up a story about how the Bible is corrupt and has been corrupted. You're scholars are lying to you big time. If you don't believe me you can go to the British library and there you can see one of the oldest complete New Testaments that we have. It’s called Codex Sinaiticus, it dates to about AD 350 … you can compare, if you’re a scholar, the text to what it says with the Bible we have today. Of course there are thousands and thousands of fragments of ancient material to go along with it. You better book your plane flight now and be prepared for a big slice of humble pie.

The other stuff you posted is a regurgitation of what Muslims like to think are contradictions and if you think they are, they will be to you. We all have our own deep seated world view based on our current understanding and what we assume to be true for various different reasons. I have examined all those references you made and there are no contradictions when you properly look at the full scope of all the text. You only jump to inaccurate conclusions based on a very narrow scope. Zoom out a little bit and you'll get it. If you stay focused on the minutia, you won't see the forest through the trees or in your case pine straw.

Do more research on those points you made and discover how the various authors have different backgrounds and some focused in on different details than others. This further confirms the accuracy of the accounts as when you get exact same written accounts, of course they are going to be viewed as being copied and therefore false. There are many well documented explanations for all your so called contradictions.

The only major contradiction is that the Quran says the Bible is accurate and your leaders know the bible contradicts it because they read it shortly after Muhamad's death, so they had to make up a story for you so the religious state of Islam could further have power over you. Now it's up to you go see for your self so you do not go down a dark path of being deceived by your religious leaders.

 

[aziz rasul]

conception_native_0123

28. Have you not seen those [disbelievers] who meet Allaah’s favours with ingratitude and lead their own people to their doom?
29. In Hell they will burn. What an evil place for settlement.
30. And they have attributed to Allaah equals to mislead [people] from His way. Say, "Enjoy yourselves, for indeed, your destination is the Fire."
Qur’an – Surah Ibrahim 14

It is He Who has created you; and of you are some that are Unbelievers, and some that are Believers: and Allaah sees well all that ye do.
Qur’an – Surah At-Taghabun 64:2

56. Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allaah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.
57. But those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide forever. For them therein are purified spouses, and We will admit them to deepening shade.
Qur’an - Surah 4:56-7

6. Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
10. In their hearts is DISEASE, so Allaah has INCREASED their DISEASE; and for them is a PAINFUL PUNISHMENT because they [habitually] used to LIE.
11. And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."
12. Unquestionably, it is they who are the CORRUPTERS, but they perceive [it] not.
17. Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allaah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see.
18. DEAF, DUMB and BLIND- so they will not return [to the right path].
19. Or [it is] like a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder and lightning. They put their fingers in their ears against the thunderclaps in dread of death. But Allaah is encompassing of the disbelievers.
20. The lightning almost snatches away their sight. Every time it lights [the way] for them, they walk therein; but when darkness comes over them, they stand [still]. And if Allaah had willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Indeed, Allaah is over all things competent.
Qur'an Sura 2

167. Those who reject Faith and keep off [men] from the way of Allaah, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.
168. Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allaah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-
169. Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allaah is easy.
170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allaah: believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allaah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allaah is All-knowing, All-wise.
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more than] a messenger of Allaah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allaah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allaah is one Allaah: Glory be to Him: [far exalted is He] above having a son.
To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allaah as a Disposer of affairs.
Qur'an 4:167-171

God the Creator of everything will be the Judge not His creation.

Those who REJECT God in His Oneness will enter HELLFIRE

 

[aziz rasul]

Quran with a questioning mind rather than a gullible one.

I did and still do read the Qur'an with a questioning mind, but you don't by the fact you outright reject the verses due to arrogance even when I ask you to obtain evidence of your rejection as I have done recently, you have no answer.

That's my point

The points you make are totally invalid.

Jesus (peace be upon him) account is portrayed accurately in the Qur'an and as the author sees fit and Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Muslim. Jesus (peace be upon him) would be ashamed by the beliefs of the so-called 'Christians' which he didn't preach. He preached the Oneness of God without any divisions. The Muslims are nearer to Jesus (peace be upon him) than you and others like you.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was mentioned, by the name of Ahmad, in the Injeel which we do not have.

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allaah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
Qur’an - Surah as-Saff (The Ranks) 61:6 See also The New Testament - John 16:7-16

If an article of faith in Islam is to accept Jesus (peace be upon him) as a Prophet\Messenger\Maseeh, how is that a denial of him. What you are saying just makes no sense. Oh and BTW there were aother Maseeh's before.

When the angels said: “O Mary! Allaah gives you the good news of a Word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, who is illustrious in this world and the hereafter, and who is one of those brought near [to Allaah].
Qur'an 3.45

The Holy Spirit, in Islam has always been the highest ranked angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) and not what you attribute to him.

171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion or utter anything concerning Allaah but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allaah, His Word that He sent to Mary, and a Spirit (Gabriel) from Him [that He sent]. So believe in Allaah and His messengers, and do not say “Three.” Desist, it is better for you! Allaah is one God. Far exalted is He above having offspring. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Allaah is sufficient a disposer of affairs.
172. The Messiah would never scorn to be a servant to Allaah, nor would the angels who are nearest to Allaah. As for those who scorn His service and are arrogantly proud, He shall gather them all to Himself to answer.
Qur'an 4.171-2

Interesting that you didn't challenge the Biblical contradictions in any DETAIL that you were so confident didn't exist. I wonder why? Oh and BTW I did zooooom out, and guess what the contradictions remained.

I know that the oldest NT was written by man in the 4th century. Some of the contradictions in the present day Bibles are based on COMPARING the earliest man written parchment. For example 1John 5:7 doesn't even appear in that. It was added around the 16th century. Of course you can add\edit\remove from any man made works. The people of old however did the same to the Torah which they shouldn't have done. Hence the need of the final Scripture which God Himself said He would preserve, which He has done. If it wasn't for that, the Muslims, like the previous nations, would have changed it as well.

The number of books in the Protestant and Catholic Bible are even different. There is ONLY One Qur'an.

Be prepared for a big slice of humble pie, wherever you are. Going somewhere else, even into the heavens, isn't going to change the TRUTH. You don't wield that much power that you can change the TRUE Word of God. Do more research and stop making false excuses. Get your head out of the sand and open your eyes.

So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.
Qur’an 22:46

This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I PERFECTED your religion for you and COMPLETED my favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL-ISLAM.
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:3

Briefly give us the well documented explanation to the contradictions I gave you. Make my day
Don't go down a dark path of being deceived by your religious leaders.

The Qur'an confirms that previous Scriptures were revealed and that the previous Scriptures were corrupted.

The Books of Abraham and Moses.
Qur’an - Surah al-A`ala (The Most High) 87:19 See also 21:48 and 4:54.

We have sent thee (Muhammad) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:163

84. Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allaah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
85. And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allaah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:84-5

No just estimate of Allaah do they make when they say: “Nothing doth Allaah send down to man (by way of revelation)” Say: “Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought? - a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (SEPARATE) sheets for show, while ye CONCEAL much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers.” Say: “Allaah (sent it down)”: Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.
Qur’an - Surah al-An’aam (Cattle) 6:91 See also 2:75, 3:78, 3:187, 3:199, 4:46, 4:162, 5:12 and 5:44.

It's clear, that you know nothing about Islam but happy to make wild statements to uphold your FALSE beliefs. Like The_Doc_Man, I also attended a Protestant school and was brainwashed but when I grew up and fact checked some of the nonsense I was taught, it wasn't difficult to reject it. I was taught that Jesus (peace be upon him) claimed to be the 'begotten' son of God, and yet the word 'begotten' doesn't even appear in the 4 designated gospels from the original 79 gospels.

 

[conception_native_0123]

aziz, I'm not dignifying all your shit that you wrote with a response anymore than this. I've said all that needs to be. thanks.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

you have no answer.

I no longer consider it worth my time to seek specific articles to refute you, though if I come across a refutation from another source, I will bring that link here. Don't hold your breath waiting.