US Senate voted to block President Obama’s tough new climate change regulations (1 Viewer)

[Bladerunner]

There is another case of that... the parting of the Red Sea (actually, probably the "Reed" Sea) due to seismic activity. It has been found along with chariots, wheels, etc at the bottom of the sea,.
Then there are the plagues of Egypt, currently believed to be due to volcanic actions.
There are a few others, but of course the overly zealous members of the forum will merely say that these events were God's way of implementing His judgment. MY response is that there ALWAYS has to be a scientific reason since otherwise you would have proof - and we all know that it has to be a matter of faith, not proof, that will lead you to God. And therein lies the rub. It is ALWAYS a matter of interpretation. I have simply chosen to interpret the events scientifically..

[/QUOTE]

Doc,, I guess I am going to have to agree with you that how most of the things that were caused can be scientifically proven. However, The parting of the Red or Reed Sea is not one of them. It was a miracle

Explanation; If seismic activity caused the water to split apart, what kept it up there long enough for;;; approx. 650,000 MEN ( plus women, children, animals, etc) to get to the other side. Even if it were only a few hundred yards in width, it would take several hours to get that many people through it. What about the mud at the bottom of the sea. It would swallow most of the wagons (have you ever tried to push an old time wagon through the mud, NO still has them) and probably most of everything else including the people.
The Egyptian Army that was chasing them entered the sea bed as the remaining Hebrews were exiting the sea floor. Yet, the sea did not collapse immediately until the whole army was on the sea floor. A miracle is an event that cannot be explained scientifically......NO.......Yes??????

Ok, on the others, I will agree with you on the scientific reasoning. However, it seems that again the timing is the proverbial stick in the wheel. The Nile turned red just when Moses's staff hit the water. A volcano with red dirt,,possibly but again the timing.

There was a drought and in my mind there is little doubt that it caused the flies, grasshoppers (locust) and other plagues (except one). However, all of these flies, etc. had to come to the city in force where they had not before.

The EXCEPT ONE, you know about it and you know that its nature. It was the death of the 'First born ' of both human and animals. and this was brought on by the Pharaoh himself. Now, who would have known that a simple protection likes 'lambs blood' (cleanses sin in OT) would protect those who used it without discrimination. The Bible tells us that God told Moses to tell the people. Not one Hebrew died and at least one or two Egyptians were spared because of this divine dose of protection.

It appears the first three plaques affected all of Egypt and everybody in it while the 4,5 6,7 and 9th plague only affected Egyptians. Now where is the scientific reason behind this. The 8th plague does not really say if it was for only Egyptians or both.

You said "I have simply chosen to interpret the events scientifically" but in my opinion you chosen to leave out a lot of the problems associated with the interpretation you used.

The Bible that God wrote did not lie. Doc, you know the Bible is true. What does it take to tell yourself a lie for something that deep down you know is true? Go out and have a talk with God, just you and Him.,,,, I believe if you are earnest, he will answer.

To everybody else: everyday brings on more discoveries,written, archelogical, scientific or otherwise that the events portrayed in the Bible are TRUE that there is a living God..From the beginning, Creation of the Earth and the Heavens; to Noah's Ark and the Flood; to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, to the Birth, Death on the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, to the Tribulations that will determine if you will live eternally or not. Check it out, I think you will be surprised.

I pray to our Father in Heaven that each one of you regardless who you are enjoy this years Thanksgiving holiday. Amen

Blade

 

[Frothingslosh]

The catch, Blade, is that there is NO Bible that God wrote. There are, however, thousands of versions written by men, each of which differs from the rest. And, to be quite honest, the belief that the Bible is literally true is straight-up insane: the damned thing contradicts itself, much less common sense.

It is far, far more likely that an unusually long-duration seismic event lowered sea level in a local sea for 20 or 30 minutes than that God opened up a hallway through it for hours, and that the tale grew in the telling. Hell, a story can't make it through a ring of ten people without being drastically changed, so why in the WORLD would you think a story would remain unchanged over a thousand years of strictly oral history?

(We won't even get into how God apparently decided to stop tossing miracles around left and right the instant people started writing things down.)

 

[Brianwarnock]

I think it is more likely to be due to tidal action such as we experience in Morecamb Bay, and which nearly drowned Napoleon in the Gulf of Suez

Brian

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Doc,,,,there is one thing for sure, I have to study a lot to make sure you are on track and that I have an correct answer for you.

Well, golly gee, thanks Blade. I have to keep you on your toes, after all...

Doc,, I guess I am going to have to agree with you that how most of the things that were caused can be scientifically proven.

No, Blade. This time I am going to be adamant about it. IF your Bible is correct in that only through FAITH can you come to God, then ALL repeat ALL of these Biblical events must be explainable through science. Not just "MOST" of the things. ALL of them. Otherwise, proof of God's existence would exist and would obviate faith completely. This is one fine point where you CANNOT have it both ways.

This ties in to the "free will" concept. If you have a verified event for which you CANNOT POSSIBLY choose a scientific explanation at any level of complexity, then you have found yourself to be like a rock that cannot choose between two disparate beliefs, one of which would get you into Heaven and the other would bar your way.

When I say "CANNOT POSSIBLY choose" I mean that no science exists that even remotely addresses the issue at any level of explanation. It doesn't matter that our theory is incomplete as long as it points to a possible solution. If that event can ONLY be described through divine intervention then there is no need for faith - which is one of the classic heresies and is one of the reasons that lots of folks have trouble with many of those "pre-ordained salvation" denominations.

As to Sodom and Gomorrah and the issue of "Chaldean" vs. "Babylonian" astronomers: I recall that my data source was a PBS program on "Biblical Mysteries Explained" or some similar title. It wasn't recent, so I'll allow the possibility that my memory of which nation's astronomers were involved might be a bit faded. But the 3200 BC date, I remember clearly, and the explanation of WHAT happened (bolide explosion) is also fairly clear in my memory. The super-hot fireball incinerating everything down to piles of ash? As recently as the Tunguska blast of the early 1900s, we have examples of what happens in a bolide burst.

The issues with Exodus and the plague of "death of the first-born" has been analyzed by some historians and their conclusion is that the first-born children were more likely to have been exposed to tainted grain (perhaps with ergot) for a longer time than the younger children - particularly since the Egyptians since the time of Joseph were grain hoarders. And of course, Joseph pre-dates Moses. So there was plenty of time for grain to become tainted.

Let's get down to why I no longer believe, in the simplest possible terms. It is a matter of Occam's Razor, the scientifically oriented principle that says when you have multiple explanations of something, the simplest one is usually right.

If we have a case where strict faith requirements apply, then God had to make this world look EXACTLY like it was made by science, because if He screwed up even one time, He gave us scientifically testable proof of his existence. So your pre-condition for these two alternatives is the faith requirement and the denial of existence of proof.

Therefore, option A: The Big Bang theory (in some variation) is correct; Earth formed through dust accretion; the planet was hot but eventually cooled; sometime later, abiogenesis happened; after that, evolution happened; we are here because all of those things happened in that order.

Option B: God put us here some time ago but also made EVERY FACET of option A spring into being so that IF we tested it, it would look like option A was the right answer - because otherwise we would negate the faith requirement.

Occam's Razor says that A is simpler than B. I choose A because B requires me to make many assumptions on God's existence outside of the realms associated with option A. Option B is just another layer of complexity on top of Option A. Occam's Razor says I can do away with option B.

 

[Bladerunner]

I think it is more likely to be due to tidal action such as we experience in Morecamb Bay, and which nearly drowned Napoleon in the Gulf of Suez

Brian

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you too Brian......to get 650,000 MEN across not counting the women and children????

.

Blade

 

[Galaxiom]

650,000 MEN across not counting the women and children????

Of course. Women and children never count for anything in the Abrahamic cults.

 

[Bladerunner]

Of course. Women and children never count for anything in the Abrahamic cults.

Hey Galxiom,,,,have not heard from you in a while...I do have a question for you.

Ever since I have known you on this thread,,,you have talked about the Abrahamic cults, era, etc.......What do you base all of this on? What did Abram or Abraham do to make you think this way?

Blade

 

[Frothingslosh]

I shouldn't have to explain this to God's Own Master Of The Bible, but the three Abrahamaic cults he's referring to are Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, since all three descend from the same religion and worship the same god.

 

[Galaxiom]

Abram was probably not the first of the mentally ill people who claimed to hear voices from beyond but for some bizarre reason other people believed him. He was clearly deranged because he nearly murdered his own son when the voices told him to, holding back at the last moment when he came to his senses.

He was followed by several more mentally ill so called "prophets" who presumed their prejudices were messages from the master of the universe. Their stories persisted because writing had been invented.

Other followed who realised that getting people to believe in a supreme being was a great way to get them to do whatever they wanted. Those who failed to obey were murdered in the name of the god. Others wanted that same control so they invented variations of the god and faiths.

Now when someone claims to hear voices we rightly dismiss them as mentally ill but fools continue to believe that the ancient mentally ill were somehow different.

 

[Brianwarnock]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you too Brian......to get 650,000 MEN across not counting the women and children????

.

Blade

People can spend hours in Morecamb Bay, but when the tide starts to come in you have to be out of there PDQ as it is faster than a horse can gallop, it knocks you off your feet and you drown, as those Chinese Cockelers found.
If Moses had lived in the area where he crossed he would have the knowledge to exploit such a situation.

Brian

 

[Galaxiom]

People can spend hours in Morecamb Bay, but when the tide starts to come in you have to be out of there PDQ as it is faster than a horse can gallop, it knocks you off your feet and you drown, as those Chinese Cockelers found.
If Moses had lived in the area where he crossed he would have the knowledge to exploit such a situation.

Firstly, the Red sea doesn't have tides of anywhere near sufficient magnitude. Secondly tides complete full cycle in about 12.5 hours, nowhere near long enough to pass a million people.

Thirdly Moses led them all over the desert for forty years to cover a distance that would could have been done in two weeks so geographical knowledge and navigation were was clearly not his strengths.

 

[Galaxiom]

The rational explanation for the story of the Red Sea crossing is that is was added to the Exodus myth when someone able to think a little more critically than the average Hebrew pointed out that they would have had to cross the sea on their legendary journey.

In fact there isn't any evidence that the Hebrews came from Egypt at all.

 

[Bladerunner]

I shouldn't have to explain this to God's Own Master Of The Bible, but the three Abrahamaic cults he's referring to are Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, since all three descend from the same religion and worship the same god.

As usual Frothy, when it comes to the Bible and/or God you are wrong. Christians and Jewish People worship the same God..Islams God is a False God.

Blade

 

[Frothingslosh]

As usual Frothy, when it comes to the Bible and/or God you are wrong. Christians and Jewish People worship the same God..Islams God is a False God.

Blade

Telling me I'm wrong does not make it so, no matter how desperately you wish otherwise.

 

[Bladerunner]

Abram was probably not the first of the mentally ill people who claimed to hear voices from beyond but for some bizarre reason other people believed him. He was clearly deranged because he nearly murdered his own son when the voices told him to, holding back at the last moment when he came to his senses.

He was followed by several more mentally ill so called "prophets" who presumed their prejudices were messages from the master of the universe. Their stories persisted because writing had been invented.

Other followed who realised that getting people to believe in a supreme being was a great way to get them to do whatever they wanted. Those who failed to obey were murdered in the name of the god. Others wanted that same control so they invented variations of the god and faiths.

Now when someone claims to hear voices we rightly dismiss them as mentally ill but fools continue to believe that the ancient mentally ill were somehow different.

Do you really believe all that garbage you are spitting out... Really??????? Have you thought about how the situation was back in those days.

But never mind... Abram was a true disciple of God. First of all, the site of his almost sacrifice is now know as the temple mount.

One other thing, "Because of Abraham’s obedience on Mount Moriah, God told Abraham that his “descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed because you have obeyed me”"

But there is another reason,,,NO----Yes,,,,,,,go ahead give it to me.

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Firstly, the Red sea doesn't have tides of anywhere near sufficient magnitude. Secondly tides complete full cycle in about 12.5 hours, nowhere near long enough to pass a million people.

Thirdly Moses led them all over the desert for forty years to cover a distance that would could have been done in two weeks so geographical knowledge and navigation were was clearly not his strengths.

Because the Hebrews had sinned while Moses was getting the Ten Commandments written by the fingers of God. God then instructed him and indeed probably give Moses directions to have the Hebrews wonder for forty years (actually 38years) until all of that generation had passed. Only then could they (the Hebrews) enter the land promised to Abraham and his descendants.

By the way, Genesis 15:18 declares to Abraham, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.”

In today's land that is : All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Have a great day Galaxiom,,,it is raining here.

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

The rational explanation for the story of the Red Sea crossing is that is was added to the Exodus myth when someone able to think a little more critically than the average Hebrew pointed out that they would have had to cross the sea on their legendary journey.

In fact there isn't any evidence that the Hebrews came from Egypt at all.

au contraire my friend. It seems there has been some discrepancy in the area. The Red sea or Reed Sea. The following link, I think confirms the RED sea is the area where Moses and the multitude crossed over.
http://wyattmuseum.com/discovering/red-sea-crossing

Now keep in mind that the Bible tells us there were at least 600 'chosen' chariots not counting the main army. They ave already counted at least 400+ chariots at the bottom of the floor.

If you were Egypt would you want it known that God did this to you. However, there is other proof ::: here is another article (yes from a bible group) that is putting together the story so you can read it.

http://www.biblebigpicture.com/biblelessons/evidenceofredseacrossing.htm

Keep in mind that God hid a lot of the artifacts from the past to preserve them. If he had not, like the Egyptian Mummies, the evidence would be non-existant.

Blade

 

[Galaxiom]

Do you really believe all that garbage you are spitting out... Really??????? Have you thought about how the situation was back in those days.

I know you really believe all the rubbish you are spouting. Doesn't make it true though.

Fact is Abram was willing to kill his own son because voices in his head told him to. Following voices in one's head is a symptom of mental illness.

This is the thing about your God. If he were real he would be tried for crimes against humanity. He killed every first born son in Egypt because the Egyptian king would not release the Hebrews. Why punish the innocent for the crimes of their king over whom they had no control?

Because the "morality" of your god is the sick and twisted musings of ignorant arrogant men. Men much like you unfortunately. Indeed I find you among the worst of those I have encountered online.

If there really were chariots found on the bottom of the Red sea they would have been recovered and analysed in the finest detail. Your accept rubbish like this only because you desperately want to believe it.

And you want to believe it because, having spent your whole life in preparation for the reward of eternal life, you are terrified it might all be a myth. This is why you keep reassuring yourself by posting about it here.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Firstly, the Red sea doesn't have tides of anywhere near sufficient magnitude. Secondly tides complete full cycle in about 12.5 hours, nowhere near long enough to pass a million people.

Thirdly Moses led them all over the desert for forty years to cover a distance that would could have been done in two weeks so geographical knowledge and navigation were was clearly not his strengths.

So the event is not true but the numbers of people is?

Water does not have to be deep to drown you if the current is strong.

I suspect an event happened but not as per the biblical story, like other stories in the bible a totally unconnected happening is given significance by the fiction writers

Brian

 

[AccessBlaster]

Exactly, like old wives tales. There are small grains of truth in ancient stories.