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Bodisathva said:
But, you are operating on the common misconception that this is a Democracy...it's a Republic.
But isn't the plan that Iraq becomes a democracy? like the USA?

Never mind the fact it was better under Saddam though - and anyway, why should people want to be like the USA?
In the USA you've got brainwashing of the people, corruption at all levels, censorship, mass murder, a mad dictator in charge, racism, . . . . . . . . hmmmm, a bit like Iraq was really.:cool:

Col
 
nomorehype said:
Somehow, though, Yanks are still /proud/ to be Yanks, and almost dismiss criticism with rejoinders like "yep, we bad, but we do good too".

Just like Brits are still proud to be Brits ... what's your point :confused:
 
dan-cat said:
Just like Brits are still proud to be Brits ... what's your point :confused:
Oh I dunno. I think you might struggle to find a large amount of Brits now who are /proud/ of themselves at the moment. Certainly, you'd find a lot less than you would have ten years ago
 
nomorehype said:
Oh I dunno. I think you might struggle to find a large amount of Brits now who are /proud/ of themselves at the moment. Certainly, you'd find a lot less than you would have ten years ago

I wasn't talking about being proud of yourself but rather being proud of your country. I see this as a good thing regardless of the current leader.
 
Oh dear.... I'm getting dizzy - all this pointless 'round and 'round and 'round... Will the last one out of this thread please turn the lights out... I'm leaving :):):)
 
dan-cat said:
I wasn't talking about being proud of yourself but rather being proud of your country. I see this as a good thing regardless of the current leader.
Apologies, I wasn't clear there. I /meant/ "proud of their country", inasmuch as I don't think you'll find many Brits who /are/ currently proud of their country. But the other poster is right - this is going round in circles. The average Joe is the US is fundamentally different to the average Joe in the UK - the former has the stars'n'stripes through the middle of him like a stick of rock and thinks anyone going against the flow is either a communist or a "raghead", the latter has sufficient willpower to seek out information and create his own judgement irrespective of whether that agrees with UK Gov plc or not.
 
nomorehype said:
The average Joe is the US is fundamentally different to the average Joe in the UK - the former has the stars'n'stripes through the middle of him like a stick of rock and thinks anyone going against the flow is either a communist or a "raghead", the latter has sufficient willpower to seek out information and create his own judgement irrespective of whether that agrees with UK Gov plc or not.


and yet the UK has a leader voted in by the "average Joe" for three consecutive terms who follows the exact same foreign policies as the authority that you berate.
 
nomorehype said:
... The average Joe is the US is fundamentally different to the average Joe in the UK - the former has the stars'n'stripes through the middle of him like a stick of rock and thinks anyone going against the flow is either a communist or a "raghead", the latter has sufficient willpower to seek out information and create his own judgement irrespective of whether that agrees with UK Gov plc or not.

'The average Joe is the US has the stars'n'stripes through the middle of him like a stick of rock and thinks anyone going against the flow is either a communist or a "raghead"'

That's a bit harsh isn't it? :o Would it be a slight bit more accurate to do a 'It's my opinion that... blah, blah, blah...' as a preface to your comment?
 
KenHigg said:
That's a bit harsh isn't it? :o Would it be a slight bit more accurate to do a 'It's my opinion that... blah, blah, blah...' as a preface to your comment?

Perhaps ... but that would mean taking some personal responsibility for one's own remarks ;)
 
The following is purely a personal opinon and intended to offend nobody :) :

I think part of the reason why there is such a marked difference in the attitudes toward 'patriotism' is the relative age of the countries.

By the time mass media was adopted on a large scale by the West, Britain had existed long enough for it's population to become aware of the fact that the government didn't always represent it's wishes. It's also fair to say that 'we' peaked, as nation, before mass media like TV was around, so large chunks of the people never got to hear about major victories and achievements until long afterwards.

In the US, however, the country's growth has been alongside the growth of the various media industries, meaning that the government has been able to be media savvy and manipulate it in a way that older countries' governments would have loved to do, but weren't able. Patriotism has been drummed into American citizens in a way the British government could ony dream of, since achievements can be boasted about and reinforced as they happen.. If we'd had TV in Quenn Victoria's time, I bet it would have been much easier to find fervently patriotic British people.

From watching various US news programs, I know that the view they are presented with on numerous topics (Iraq being one), from various sources is markedly different from the way such events are broadcast in the UK. Although on nothing like the same scale, it remnds me of the Germans who were outraged when their country surrendered at the end of WW1, since the media had given them the impression they were winning.

Important: that is NOT a dig at Americans, I appreciate the average person has no control over what gets shown on TV, and if the same things were broadcast in the UK, we would probably have grown up with many of the same attitudes. I also know that many aren't 'taken in' by any skewed reporting, but even the most ardent flag wavers would have to admit that many people do accept whatever is shown to them as gospel.

Add to the media influence the fact, that by the time the US was colonized, people were able and willing to travel much further than during Britain's early days. This allowed for the development and maintenance of a national identity far more easily and across a much larger area than in older countries where some people might spend their whole lives within a few miles of where they were born.

Without rambling on for too long (too late, I hear you say :D ), I'll end there.
(and apologies if I've spoiled anybody's rant by trying to make a few points. ;) )
 
nomorehype said:
The average Joe is the US is fundamentally different to the average Joe in the UK - the former has the stars'n'stripes through the middle of him like a stick of rock and thinks anyone going against the flow is either a communist or a "raghead", the latter has sufficient willpower to seek out information and create his own judgement irrespective of whether that agrees with UK Gov plc or not.
Well, I'm sure we're all glad you've joined the conversation. I mean, there's nothing like being branded a braindead hick before ever saying a word to really establish a sense of open dialogue and honest communication. You obviously have a superior perspective of the American populace; I, for one, can't wait for you to pour your wisdom into my puny, pathetic excuse for an intellect. Three cheers for nomorehype!
 
Matt: You had me hooked when you started with 'I think...'. Which were very interesting - You may well be on to something... :) :) :)
 
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Kraj said:
Well, I'm sure we're all glad you've joined the conversation. I mean, there's nothing like being branded a braindead hick before ever saying a word to really establish a sense of open dialogue and honest communication. You obviously have a superior perspective of the American populace; I, for one, can't wait for you to pour your wisdom into my puny, pathetic excuse for an intellect. Three cheers for nomorehype!

:p :p :p

Thought you'd never get here - :D

I think he's a dual id poster...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Kraj said:
Three cheers for nomorehype!


No? Nothing? Not even a titter? Tough sub...

dr_evil.jpg
 
Matt Greatorex said:
Which, unfortunately rules me out of the debate :D

Just curious - Did all of that just occur to you out of the blue or did something prompt you into that line of thinking?
 
KenHigg said:
Matt: You had me hooked when you started with 'I think...'. Which were very interesting - You may well be on to something... :) :) :)
Agreed. Quite an interesting perspective, Matt. Sounds like a sensible explanation to me, although I'm sure it's not the whole story either.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if much of America's fervent patriotism comes from its deep roots in Christianity. The early Americans likely held a strong sense of divine providence in the country's successes that pervades today as patriotism. ...Just a stab in the dark. :D

KenHigg said:
I think he's a dual id poster...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I doubt it. I can't think of a single person on these board who could force themselves to abbreviate "policy" as "plc". :rolleyes:
 
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Kraj said:
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if much of America's fervent patriotism comes from its deep roots in Christianity. The early Americans likely held a strong sense of divine providence in the country's successes that pervades today as patriotism.
Now there's a scary thought...:eek:
 
KenHigg said:
Just curious - Did all of that just occur to you out of the blue or did something prompt you into that line of thinking?

Worryingly, most of it came to me while I was reading the entries since last Friday. Bits and pieces of random thought sort of coalesced as I was typing it.

I've had numerous conversations with people since arriving in Canada about accents (I find it genuinely amazing that so many people here look shocked when I suggest they do, in fact, have one, it's just different from mine). I started trying to theorize how accents might have developed - which is where the geographic idea came from - and the media part is just based on what I've seen since being here.
 
Kraj said:
Agreed. Quite an interesting perspective, Matt. Sounds like a sensible explanation to me, although I'm sure it's not the whole story either.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if much of America's fervent patriotism comes from its deep roots in Christianity. The early Americans likely held a strong sense of divine providence in the country's successes that pervades today as patriotism. ...Just a stab in the dark. :D

I think :p , that part of the UK's lack of patriotism is due in part because of the royal thing. Having been considered a second class person all our life, etc, etc... Just a thought - please don't anyone take it the wrong way...:o


Kraj said:
I doubt it. I can't think of a single person on these board who could force themselves to abbreviate "policy" as "plc". :rolleyes:

Hum, Good point - guess you're right...
 

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