W

[nomorehype]

actually, 1 US gallons = 3.7854118 liters,

Yes, and in answer to a previous post about comparing like for like, I did try to find sources from UK sites but didnt come across them in a quick search. We're still rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic though - like I said before the average consumption is still a hell of a lot higher. In the UK, Land Rover sell a 4.6 litre (dunno what that is in ci like you use) Range Rover with positively horrific consumption, however a search of registered vehicles last year suggested that fewer than 2% of buyers chose this over its diesel engined equivalent.

By the way, sorry for the multiple posts - there was a lot to reply to while I was away

 

[Rich]

By the way, sorry for the multiple posts -

some of us prefer it that way

 

[ShaneMan]

I genuinely believe that America with its current policies is A Bad Thing(tm) for the rest of the world, and if there ever was a formal conflict between them and Europe I would most certainly sign up. What precisely is wrong with admitting that?

"what precisely is wrong with admitting that?" I guess nothing, if that is how you truly feel. At the time, it just sounded like big talk coming from behind a keyboard. If you really feel that strongly about all these issues and you really believe we are as bad as you think we are and if there ever was a "formal conflict" between us and you wanted to sign up, then I guess we'll see ya when you get here.

 

[FoFa]

Sigh... Okay, try this Hummer
Nope, its not 8, its 9.6mpg. I cant be bothered to actually sit and input it all into Excel, but I'd be willing to bet that if we added together the average consumption of all vehicles for sale in the US, and all vehicles for sale in the UK, the result would be 50% worse economy for the yank tanks.

Talk about an apples to oranges. There are more reasons the UK has small cars other than pollution and gas prices. Mostly because all are in the dark ages still, your roads can't be expanded because your buildings were built during horsy days. While on the other hand, we have the room to make big roads, hence can use larger cars. AND besides, iof we are willing to pay the price for the gas milage, what business is it of yours?

 

[nomorehype]

"what precisely is wrong with admitting that?" I guess nothing, if that is how you truly feel. At the time, it just sounded like big talk coming from behind a keyboard. If you really feel that strongly about all these issues and you really believe we are as bad as you think we are and if there ever was a "formal conflict" between us and you wanted to sign up, then I guess we'll see ya when you get here.

Unlikely Im afraid - I fall significantly outside of the age criteria . But maybe they'd need anyone who was willing to come so theres still hope. Makes you wonder though - would sufficient Americans 'stand by their man' so to speak to actually make it a genuine conflict? Its certainly heartening to read that more yanks are wondering whether or not Bush is doing them any favours

 

[FoFa]

actually, 1 US gallons = 3.7854118 liters, but the US vs UK gallon and the billion thing I was not aware of...hmmm...learn something new everyday. I knew there was a reason I hang around this place

Thanks, Brian

When I was a youngster, living in Michigan, we used to vacation in Canada. Dad would tell us the gas prices appeared higher, but they had Imperial Gallons which were more than the US gallon. (I have noticed Canada has gone to liters after my recent trip there). So would the then Candaian Imperial gallon be the same as the UK's gallon?

 

[Rich]

AND besides, iof we are willing to pay the price for the gas milage, what business is it of yours?

The rest of the world is paying the price of your carbon emissions, not just you!

 

[ShaneMan]

Unlikely Im afraid - I fall significantly outside of the age criteria . But maybe they'd need anyone who was willing to come so theres still hope. Makes you wonder though - would sufficient Americans 'stand by their man' so to speak to actually make it a genuine conflict? Its certainly heartening to read that more yanks are wondering whether or not Bush is doing them any favours

Personally, I haven't heard any of the issues that you have brought up, to be worth going to war over.

 

[nomorehype]

Talk about an apples to oranges. There are more reasons the UK has small cars other than pollution and gas prices.

What, apart from the facetious ones below?

Mostly because all are in the dark ages still, your roads can't be expanded because your buildings were built during horsy days. While on the other hand, we have the room to make big roads, hence can use larger cars.
AND besides, iof we are willing to pay the price for the gas milage, what business is it of yours?

Well because, at least according to the theory, the repurcussions of your profligacy are felt further afield than your wallet. Theres only so much to go round. You're using (a lot) more than your fair share. Unlike European governments who acknowledge this and tax punitively, the US administration seem content to allow its citizens to drink and be damned. I resent that you pay so little, not because I want to pay the prices you do, but because I want you to pay the price I do. If you did, that may force a change of thinking in Detroit

 

[FoFa]

I resent that you pay so little, not because I want to pay the prices you do, but because I want you to pay the price I do. If you did, that may force a change of thinking in Detroit

Oh, the ENVY thing again comes out.
You appear to be one of those people that just can't stand someone "gett'n over" without yelling about it.
HEY, he got two scoops of ice cream, I only got one!
Such a whiner

 

[nomorehype]

Personally, I haven't heard any of the issues that you have brought up, to be worth going to war over.

Okay well Im responding in a hurry as Ive something else to do now, so this might not be the best example, but...
Imagine a scenario whereby the UN called the US to account over illegal (as far as they're concerned anyway) detention in Camp X-Ray, or 'extraordinary rendition' (what a weird phrase that is!). Diplomacy would unarguably intervene, but say that the UN demanded the cessation of rendition via its territories. Then imagine that the US refused to acknowledge this and attempted to continue grabbing people off European streets who they felt were a risk. Economic sanctions from both sides - people getting p***ed off. Perhaps with EU flagged vessels blockading ports preventing shipments from leaving bound for the US. How far is it from there before blows are exchanged? And how far are we now from the onset of this argument?

 

[nomorehype]

Oh, the ENVY thing again comes out.
You appear to be one of those people that just can't stand someone "gett'n over" without yelling about it.
HEY, he got two scoops of ice cream, I only got one!

Read again. I argued that you should pay appropriately, not that I should pay less

Such a whiner

Sorry, I thought you lot were maintaining a moral high ground about insults?

 

[FoFa]

Then imagine that the US refused to acknowledge this and attempted to continue grabbing people off European streets who they felt were a risk. Perhaps with EU flagged vessels blockading ports preventing shipments from leaving bound for the US. How far is it from there before blows are exchanged? And how far are we now from the onset of this argument?

You mean like the tube bombers?
What goods are they going to block comeing to the USA from the UK?
Other than thick cut orange marmalade, can't really think of anything we buy from the UK. Even English ale, we have produced here now (bout the only thing I bought from the UK). OK I just bought a Moto Guzzi, but that is Italian. I say blockade um, lets see who hurts the most.

 

[nomorehype]

You mean like the tube bombers?

Eh? What are you waffling about?

What goods are they going to block comeing to the USA from the UK? Other than thick cut orange marmalade, can't really think of anything we buy from the UK. Even English ale, we have produced here now (bout the only thing I bought from the UK). OK I just bought a Moto Guzzi, but that is Italian. I say blockade um, lets see who hurts the most.

Blockades traditionally work for exports as well as imports...

 

[MrsGorilla]

Just like Colin and me then

Of course.

 

[MrsGorilla]

Well because, at least according to the theory, the repurcussions of your profligacy are felt further afield than your wallet. Theres only so much to go round. You're using (a lot) more than your fair share. Unlike European governments who acknowledge this and tax punitively, the US administration seem content to allow its citizens to drink and be damned. I resent that you pay so little, not because I want to pay the prices you do, but because I want you to pay the price I do. If you did, that may force a change of thinking in Detroit

I don't think anyone here is going to argue the fact that oil is a finite resource and something needs to be done to reduce our dependancy on it. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Many of the new vehicles are rated to run on either pure gasoline or the gas/ethanol E85 mixture. I think some can even run on pure ethanol. It's not much, but it is a beginning as it will reduce (somewhat) our dependency on oil. The main problem right now is finding places to purchase that type of fuel, at least around here where I live. I just recently read that they are building 2 (or possibly 3) new processing plants in our state for producing the Ethanol blends, but they won't be operational for a year or two.

There are also the electric cars. I think more people would be willing to buy those if they didn't make them look so stupid. Why can't they just make them look like regular cars, so people can't tell when you're driving down the road that you are definitely driving a goofy-looking electric car? And then the automakers complain that they are having a hard time moving the electric or hybrid cars and they don't seem to "get it" that it is because of the way they look. I was watching the news a day or two ago and saw that a company out in Silicon Valley in California had produced an electric sports car. It looked pretty neat, definitely something I would consider buying if I were in the market for a sports car. The only problem was the $100,000 price tag. Although, they did mention that they had a 4-door sedan in the works that would carry a smaller price tag and still look sporty-ish. Hopefully that will make the "big boys" in Detroit stand up and take notice.

 

[dan-cat]

Diplomacy would unarguably intervene, but say that the UN demanded the cessation of rendition via its territories.

What via the security council? Hmmm ever heard of the word 'veto'.

1) The US isn't going to support economic sanctions on itself
2) The UK supports the US's stance on terrorism
3) France won't commit to anything
4) Russia is still recovering from the Cold War, so highly doubt that they want to enter another one
5) That leaves China to decide if they want to go it alone.

Then imagine that the US refused to acknowledge this and attempted to continue grabbing people off European streets who they felt were a risk.

These people were also felt to be a risk. European policies seem to be just as aggressive as the US.

And how far are we now from the onset of this argument?

Much further than you seem to think. Israel invaded Lebanon and the UN does nothing. What makes you think the UN is going to stand up against the US over individual terrorist suspects?

 

[nomorehype]

I don't think anyone here is going to argue the fact that oil is a finite resource and something needs to be done to reduce our dependancy on it. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Many of the new vehicles are rated to run on either pure gasoline or the gas/ethanol E85 mixture. I think some can even run on pure ethanol. It's not much, but it is a beginning as it will reduce (somewhat) our dependency on oil. The main problem right now is finding places to purchase that type of fuel, at least around here where I live. I just recently read that they are building 2 (or possibly 3) new processing plants in our state for producing the Ethanol blends, but they won't be operational for a year or two.

The E85 looks like nothing more than a sop to lentil-eaters in my view. The complete lack of an infrastructure to support it undermines it before it gets underway, and there simply are not sufficient incentives for buyers to stump up the extra in the first place.

There are also the electric cars. I think more people would be willing to buy those if they didn't make them look so stupid. Why can't they just make them look like regular cars, so people can't tell when you're driving down the road that you are definitely driving a goofy-looking electric car? And then the automakers complain that they are having a hard time moving the electric or hybrid cars and they don't seem to "get it" that it is because of the way they look. I was watching the news a day or two ago and saw that a company out in Silicon Valley in California had produced an electric sports car. It looked pretty neat, definitely something I would consider buying if I were in the market for a sports car. The only problem was the $100,000 price tag. Although, they did mention that they had a 4-door sedan in the works that would carry a smaller price tag and still look sporty-ish. Hopefully that will make the "big boys" in Detroit stand up and take notice.

Theres a (valid) argument that electric-powered cars can actually be more harmful to the environment than conventionally-fuelled vehicles, given that the process of generating the electricity they use is itself unfriendly. Theres also the unfortunate side-effect that the owner feels smug in his (locally) green car and increases his mileage, because the cost of 'refuelling' is so much cheaper and less in your face than having to stand there at the fuel station brimming the tank. Thats at least partly offset though by the current - no pun intended - lack of range of electric cars. The storage cells are so heavy as a ratio of power delivered that its a bit of a non-starter - okay, I intended that one

This effort of trying to find alternative fuels seems like a smokescreen, given that there would be much more time to find more viable alternatives if we didnt get through what we have at such a rate. Look at it like this - the average fuel consumption of your cars has actually decreased over the past 20 years (I'll give a link when I find it to back that up), simply because its more 'sexy' to beef up the horsepower than it is to increase its efficiency. Meanwhile, the tax situation in Europe has meant manufacturers have had to concentrate on economy because the consumer demands to offset the increasing price of motoring. The law of diminishing returns applies just as much here as anywhere else, so the US has so much more potential to make savings compared to everyone else - pure logic dictates that it must be easier to get from 18mpg to 28mpg than it is to get from 58mpg to 68mpg. Europeans resent that they make these savings, while watching consumers such as yourselves being so wasteful.

 

[nomorehype]

2) The UK supports the US's stance on terrorism

Not quite, the UK's puppet on a string PM supports... but I get your drift

These people were also felt to be a risk. European policies seem to be just as aggressive as the US.

Its foul and deplorable, but thankfully the public backlash has ensured that there wont be a repetition anytime soon.

What makes you think the UN is going to stand up against the US over individual terrorist suspects?

Desperation?

 

[dan-cat]

Not quite, the UK's puppet on a string PM supports... but I get your drift

You like the cowboy suits too much

Its foul and deplorable, but thankfully the public backlash has ensured that there wont be a repetition anytime soon.

Don't want to sound argumentative here but this was a repetition. Do you remember the tube shooting?