UK Online Safety Laws - I, and therefore the site, are at risk

[Jon]

Banned words are auto-starred.

The moderators moderator will not be classed as a super moderator. I seek a new fresh moderator for that role so we have a change of status quo.

Disclaimers do nothing. Self-certification of age is insufficient.

 

[GPGeorge]

I think his comments were largely fair. It is not new to me that some hate the non-technical discussion areas, especially politics. But many members love them. You can't please everybody. All I can do is provide options to hide the areas that members dislike. That way, both parties get the best of both worlds. You get the site you like, whatever your inclination.

Additionally, until now members were not aware that the Politics section helps fund the costs of running the site. Those who hate that section have a site they enjoy using because of its existence.

Sadly, we have a new overlord: The Online Safety Act. I disagree wholly with it, even if I understand its intentions are supposed to be positive. The collateral damage stifles free speech, and makes it hard for small sites to navigate its legal complexities. The site owner faces undue financial and legal risk, despite attempting to create a benign space for users to discuss topics of their choosing. Despite this, I have to comply. It is the law.

As things currently stand, it is likely that the Reform party will be the next UK government, and they said they will repeal this law. However, that is a few years away. If we close the Politics forum (almost certain) and heavily moderate the Watercooler, once we get a change of government we can again revert back to the free-flowing discussion that members love. If we survive that long.

I have 4 proposals for which I solicit your feedback:

1. Close the Politics forum (until the repeal of The Online Safety Act).

2. Create a list of words that will get starred out. Example words could be: Muslim, Islam, Islamist, Jews, Israel, Palestine, nazi. The word list would be more extensive.

3. Increase the moderation threshold within The Watercooler.

4. Have a new moderator who's specific role is to only moderate the other moderators. It is not for the squeamish. I suggest a new moderator because otherwise it is like the police policing themselves. While moderators police the members, who is policing them? Currently no one, but I suggest this new role be created to tackle that issue.

I wish I did not have to take these kind of measures, because the site has been a good home to many of you over the last 25 years. We got by. Without these changes, I fear both the risk to myself and the site will be untenable. It is a bit like someone else speeding but I get the ticket. And I would be responsible for thousands of drivers, where even one ticket could bankrupt me.

So, I welcome feedback on my 4 points above, and any other suggestions you may have.

1. I personally wouldn't miss the Politics or Water Cooler Forums. I have them on "Ignore" now anyway. Simple, clean, effective, by the way, for those who keep whinging about them. It's all about exercising your freedom to choose.

Shutting them down would reduce the risk to the site itself without impacting the experience for me, or the great majority of members I think. I don't know how who rage
posts in the politics forum and who doesn't, and I don't care.

That said, the health of the site would be negatively impacted by shutting them down. And that's an important consideration.

To me, therefore, shutting down the revenue producing forums is a hard choice to make, but saving the site from oblivion seems infinitely more important.

2. A word list is a good idea under the circumstances, but it is, at least in part, bending the knee to the censors.

3. Again, bowing to the pressure to self-censor, but probably unavoidable.

4. The same. Joining the would-be censors may prolong the site's viability at the cost of an adding a layer of bureaucracy.

Ride out the storm as long as possible, though.

 

[AngelSpeaks]

I think his comments were largely fair. It is not new to me that some hate the non-technical discussion areas, especially politics. But many members love them. You can't please everybody. All I can do is provide options to hide the areas that members dislike. That way, both parties get the best of both worlds. You get the site you like, whatever your inclination.

Additionally, until now members were not aware that the Politics section helps fund the costs of running the site. Those who hate that section have a site they enjoy using because of its existence.

Sadly, we have a new overlord: The Online Safety Act. I disagree wholly with it, even if I understand its intentions are supposed to be positive. The collateral damage stifles free speech, and makes it hard for small sites to navigate its legal complexities. The site owner faces undue financial and legal risk, despite attempting to create a benign space for users to discuss topics of their choosing. Despite this, I have to comply. It is the law.

As things currently stand, it is likely that the Reform party will be the next UK government, and they said they will repeal this law. However, that is a few years away. If we close the Politics forum (almost certain) and heavily moderate the Watercooler, once we get a change of government we can again revert back to the free-flowing discussion that members love. If we survive that long.

I have 4 proposals for which I solicit your feedback:

1. Close the Politics forum (until the repeal of The Online Safety Act).

2. Create a list of words that will get starred out. Example words could be: Muslim, Islam, Islamist, Jews, Israel, Palestine, nazi. The word list would be more extensive.

3. Increase the moderation threshold within The Watercooler.

4. Have a new moderator who's specific role is to only moderate the other moderators. It is not for the squeamish. I suggest a new moderator because otherwise it is like the police policing themselves. While moderators police the members, who is policing them? Currently no one, but I suggest this new role be created to tackle that issue.

I wish I did not have to take these kind of measures, because the site has been a good home to many of you over the last 25 years. We got by. Without these changes, I fear both the risk to myself and the site will be untenable. It is a bit like someone else speeding but I get the ticket. And I would be responsible for thousands of drivers, where even one ticket could bankrupt me.

So, I welcome feedback on my 4 points above, and any other suggestions you may have.

1. Yes
2. Please add racist fascist nazi and other nasty adjectives to this list. The posters who use them are clueless on their real meanings. These posts should automatically be removed.
3. Yes
4. I wouldn't want this responsibility.

 

[NauticalGent]

Disclaimers do nothing. Self-certification of age is insufficient.

Too true.

Its a +1 for me on GPG's input.

Unlike him, however, the non-technical forums DO interest me. I rarely need assistance these days, not because my skills are so great, it's just my projects are in maintenance mode. Helping others is not a thing for me either, by the time I am aware of one, the First Responders (and I mean that in a good way) have already sorted it out.

I like the non-Access forums because the people here are much more intelligent that the riff-raff on FB - I deleted my account over a year ago - although at times there are just as closed-minded and opinionated.

All that aside Jon, whatever you decide will be supported by me and it goes without saying, if there is anything I can do, up to and including financial assistance, please ask.

This site and its members are largely responsible for my well-compensated living - for that I will always be grateful.

 

[NauticalGent]

4. Have a new moderator who's specific role is to only moderate the other moderators. It is not for the squeamish. I suggest a new moderator because otherwise it is like the police policing themselves. While moderators police the members, who is policing them? Currently no one, but I suggest this new role be created to tackle that issue.

Additionally, if you want recomendations for this individual, I have a few I would suggest. I am willing to do that in this thread as well as support why I nominated them.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I have noticed my name taken favorably as an "ethical" moderator. Thank you, those who offered those opinions. However, all of you who offered those thoughts must realize I am quite as guilty as others in bearing a certain bias. Though religiously, I am atheist, I have a cultural background of growing up in a Christian family and ethnically, I am 1/4th European Jewish. It would be very difficult for me to stay out of emotionally charged discussions.

As to the suggestions:

1. Close the Politics forum (until the repeal of The Online Safety Act). Works for me.

2. Create a list of words that will get starred out. Example words could be: Muslim, Islam, Islamist, Jews, Israel, Palestine, nazi. The word list would be more extensive. Probably tedious, but it might help.

3. Increase the moderation threshold within The Watercooler. Do you mean that Watercooler threads need approval before becoming visible, similar to what is happening in the Sample Databases area? If so, then that might help.

4. Have a new moderator who's specific role is to only moderate the other moderators. It is not for the squeamish. I suggest a new moderator because otherwise it is like the police policing themselves. While moderators police the members, who is policing them? Currently no one, but I suggest this new role be created to tackle that issue. I agree it should be a new moderator. But here, I fear that the new moderator would have the problem of being the bearer of bad news and would have to be a strong person to operate in the face of unpopularity. Not only that, but the person in this role would have to be able to resist temptation in choosing sides on the subject matter around any particular moderation action. I saw my name as a potential choice. I explicitly DO NOT volunteer for such a position as I have already developed a reputation regarding my social, religious, and political beliefs and therefore question whether I could isolate myself that well.

Having offered my opinions, I also offer Jon any help I CAN give to get through this situation.

 

[NauticalGent]

All ideas you disagree with are hate speech. Are you the judas?

Wow. Uncalled for. You really cant help yourself, can you?

When the "AWF rogue moderator" is mentioned here and anywhere else, everyone knows who they are referring to. No names have ever been mentioned, yet you reveal yourself , living up to your billing and leaving no doubt.

A hit dog will howl...

 

[BlueSpruce]

Thank you, those who offered those opinions. However, all of you who offered those thoughts must realize I am quite as guilty as others in bearing a certain bias. Though religiously, I am atheist, I have a cultural background of growing up in a Christian family and ethnically, I am 1/4th European Jewish. It would be very difficult for me to stay out of emotionally chared discussions

I did notice some of the attributes you mention, however, you expressed your opinions in a respectful manner, and therefore still nominate you for the mod of mods role. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, including Judges, regardless of their oversight role as long as they're impartial and respectful when scrutinizing someone else.

 

[BlueSpruce]

All ideas you disagree with are hate speech. Are you the judas?

"Pat", if that's really you, there are times when I feel your AWF account has been hijacked because I just can't believe several of your inflammatory posts. I've known you and Ben Clothier since 2013, and you were never like this back in those days.

 

[BlueSpruce]

If you want to identify yourself we can have a private conversation. Your comments are totally inappropriate and have no business being made in a public forum. I guess you were emboldened by another poster's earlier personal attack on me.

We are having a conversation currently that is the essence of free speech. The UK doesn't allow free speech and so this forum is in jeopardy. Jon is personally in jeopardy for things he never said. YOU have made the judgement that I am somehow at fault here because I believe Hamas is the terrorist organization, not Israel and I have been trying desperately to educate ignorant people on the history of the region. Sadly for this forum, one of those ignorant people who is almost certainly suffering from cognitive dissonance (and probably TDS) decided to cancel the forum because he had no counter to the truth represented by historical facts.

View attachment 121940

If you knew that Egypt annexed Gaza and Jordan annexed Samara and Judea in 1948 while they were trying to destroy Israel then you're one in a million. And that is just ONE of the many facts of history that the Hamas supporters don't know. If you didn't know, then be honest and say thank you.

I have a better idea, which is to ignore you, but unfortunately no ignore button shows up for you because you're unbelievably still a "super moderator".

So I am formally asking @Jon to change your role to non-moderator so an ignore button appears that I can press.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

If you knew that Egypt annexed Gaza and Jordan annexed Samara and Judea in 1948 while they were trying to destroy Israel then you're one in a million. And that is just ONE of the many facts of history that the Hamas supporters don't know. If you didn't know, then be honest and say thank you.

Pat, STOP BRINGING THAT TOPIC INTO THIS THREAD!!!!!! I have (with Jon's agreement) shut down two non-tech threads over this topic already. LEAVE IT BE!!!!!!!

I've been on this forum for about 24 years. In the last couple of years you have shown a level of fervency in your discussion that is unfamiliar. I wonder if something has happened outside the forum that is coloring your responses. (No, don't tell me, publicly or privately - the comment is more a request for introspection on your part.) Whatever it is that is bugging you, try to leave it at the door. You are a good person but you have become abrasive.

If at some moment in the forums you believe you are dealing with a fool, may I remind you of Mark Twain's relevant comments?

After the first couple of rounds, this one becomes relevant: "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".

When someone could not keep quiet,... "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt".

When dealing with ingrained beliefs: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled".

When STILL dealing with ingrained beliefs: "The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie".

And this has a certain sting to it: "Let us be thankful for the fools; if not for them, the rest of us could not succeed".

 

[GPGeorge]

Spoiler:

The people who think they know best about how things should be run, went around you.

Now that they’ve won, they feel emboldened.

Spoiler:

I have no doubt this will continue regardless of the subject matter or who’s moderating. That was never the real issue. The issue has always been that the owner wouldn’t bend to their will, everything else is just an excuse in my opinion.

You have hit the nail on the head.

 

[DHookom]

I recall someone in this thread bringing politics into a technical forum. I should have reported it. Thankfully this has happened only once. Some technical threads get a bit dicey since most of us are stuck in our ways and OPs won’t head to our advice.

I hope for my sake, getting a bit snarky isn’t grounds for expulsion.

 

[BlueSpruce]

I recall someone in this thread bringing politics into a technical forum. I should have reported it. Thankfully this has happened only once. Some technical threads get a bit dicey since most of us are stuck in our ways and OPs won’t head to our advice.

I hope for my sake, getting a bit snarky isn’t grounds for expulsion.

I can anticipate more political and religious posts contaminating the tech forums if the watercooler is shutdown. I have already noticed trolls in tech forums intentionally creating controversy to inflame the atmosphere. Without warning, I will simply ignore anyone I perceive to be haughty and hostile.

 

[Isaac]

You can be held responsible if you knowingly allow illegal content to remain

It does indeed seem like that right there is the main 'meat' of the OSA law. I don't think they're going to jump on you as soon as someone posts something in violation, but rather, if you let it remain there. How picky they'll be about stuff that remained there for a good while but you didn't realize it was there is hard to predict, but the guardian recently reported:
1) a man was notified by the police that he had to remove a sign in his shop that said "due to scumbag thieves, you will need a key to access that merchandise". "Scumbag" might offend thieves, so the sign had to go.
2) not to change the subject, but I've heard the UK has gotten so anti-self-defense that if you so much as carry gardening equipment (which includes a knife) from the store to your house, you can be hassled by the police, because you might be carrying a weapon.

Is it just me or is the UK gone mad? the criminals are the good guys and the good guys are the bad guys. so many thigns these days have been turned upside-down, with the one called the other and the other called the one. Reminds me of Isaiah 5:20

 

[Minty]

The UK or to be more accurate the Media and Reporting from the UK has become almost as polarised as the US.
It is very difficult to find neutral reporting.

A lot of it is clickbait headlines, and biased.

We do still have free speech, contrary to some reports, but in too many circumstances we appear to be heading down the route of "extreme wokeness" where any tiny minority, or more accurately someone claiming they represent the tiny minority, stirs up a load of "opinion" that someone is "Offended/prejudiced/discriminated/belittled/ignored" pick one, there are at least another 20 adjectives that could be used.

When you dig into it (through a number of sources) most of it is bunkum and nothing comes of it, but it's added to the background noise.

Unfortunately, as most of our politicians have the common sense of a deranged baboon and are led by their noses by soothsayers and snake oil salesmen, they think they need to legislate to help the "oppressed", without having the first clue about the consequences or implications.

@Isaac we have had very strict laws about carrying knifes for a long time. They must be below a certain size and shape or considered a offensive weapon. This does mean that some gardening implements fall into that description, and an over zealous policeman might take you to task over it. It doesn't stop 14 year olds stabbing each other though.

To the matter in hand - I've ignored the watercooler for some time. The affliction of TDS (which appears to afflict both supporters and haters in equal measure from the rhetoric and general gibberish involved) and never the twain shall meet stances mean it holds zero interest, so its removal would not affect me from a reading perspective.
However, if it affects the small income stream that keeps the site afloat, then we need some method of keeping those that stoke its fires enabled, and I suspect strong moderation is the only answer.

There... I've managed to avoid answering any of the questions directly, so must now stand as an MP.

 

[NauticalGent]

The affliction of TDS (which appears to afflict both supporters and haters in equal measure from the rhetoric and general gibberish involved) and never the twain shall meet

Brillant!

 

[BlueSpruce]

Does TDS stand for Testosterone Deficiency Syndrome?

 

[BlueSpruce]

The optics of UK's efforts to censor the internet looks flimsy. I doubt they would prevail in levying fines and prosecuting stakeholders outside of their jurisdiction. At most, they could ban access to foreign sites, but a vpn can workaround that obstacle.

 

[Isaac]

never the twain shall meet stances mean it holds zero interest

This is profound. Indeed, the most interesting of all cases is when you find two people from opposing sides either finding some common ground or becoming willing to empathize in a meaningful way, and perhaps even move their stakes. That being quite rare, I can understand what you mean about finding it uninteresting. I engage partly because it actually has taught me a thing or two, and partly for no good reason other than a compulsion