Atheists and theists are the same.

[Rich]

And why does God have to be created?

Fear of the unknown, justification for countless wars, hatred etc.,do you need some more, and by the way a 747 is a man made object

 

[Adam Caramon]

...I view science as explaining the means of God's creation.

Which is why your view is fundamentally incorrect. When you start with a premise of 'x must be true', you are limiting yourself and your conclusions. It is nice to see however that the religious people are becoming more acceptable of science, education, intelligence, etc. and molding their religion to fit that which we can prove.

Not to be anatagonistic, but I also find it refreshing to see each year that the % of atheists in America grow and the % people identifying themselves as of a particular religion dropping. It is the one of the clearest signs of advancement a country can show IMO.

 

[Thales750]

I also find it refreshing to see each year that the % of atheists in America grow and the % people identifying themselves as of a particular religion dropping. It is the one of the clearest signs of advancement a country can show IMO.

Spoken like a true believer and disciple.

With every spoken word the atheist on this site prove to all open minded listeners that theirs is the true religion

Keep the faith brothers.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Spoken like a true believer and disciple.

With every spoken word the atheist on this site prove to all open minded listeners that theirs is the true religion

But I'm not an atheist, so how could I be a 'true believer'? Though I must admit the word disciple sounds very cool.

 

[Thales750]

But I'm not an atheist, so how could I be a 'true believer'? Though I must admit the word disciple sounds very cool.

There you are, me, I going down stairs to smoke my pipe.
Have a great day guys.

 

[Adam Caramon]

There you are, me, I going down stairs to smoke my pipe.
Have a great day guys.

This one may take a while to translate into understandable English. I think its "I don't want to address this. I simply want to state my opinion and then walk away". If so, no problems here. I've never been one to try to open someone's eyes when they choose to keep them shut. Ignorance is bliss and all that.

I do think its too bad you couldn't have arranged your sentence a little better though. You're giving the UKer's a bad image of the average American.

 

[Thales750]

This one may take a while to translate into understandable English. I think its "I don't want to address this. I simply want to state my opinion and then walk away". If so, no problems here. I've never been one to try to open someone's eyes when they choose to keep them shut. Ignorance is bliss and all that.

I really don't have much of an opinion on it Adam. I mostly like to see everyone, “get up in arms” over the irrelevant.

I do think its too bad you couldn't have arranged your sentence a little better though. You're giving the UKer's a bad image of the average American.

I really was writing the way I speak, in a casual tone. If it will make them more comfortable I will refrain from any unnecessary familiarity.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I really don't have much of an opinion on it Adam. I mostly like to see everyone, “get up in arms” over the irrelevant.

QUOTE]

Now I could have sworn that that is precisely what so many Americans condemn certain unnamed UK posters for.

Brian

 

[Thales750]

I really don't have much of an opinion on it Adam. I mostly like to see everyone, “get up in arms” over the irrelevant.

QUOTE]

Now I could have sworn that that is precisely what so many Americans condemn certain unnamed UK posters for.

Brian

Brian,
Be honest, you already knew that about me, and you like me anyway.

 

[laxster]

Fear of the unknown, justification for countless wars, hatred etc.,do you need some more, and by the way a 747 is a man made object

That would be turning away from God, not to mention breaking multiple Commandments. God does not want us to slaughter each other in His name.

God and Jesus are about being in harmony with the universe, not about getting our undies in a bunch. It is fallacious to think that believing in God starts wars. It doesn't. People who have turned away from His teachings or gain perverse viewpoints through their own improper interpretations twist things around to fit their own agendas.

As far as the fear of the unknown, I don't follow what you mean. Believing in God or not doesn't have to do with a fear of the unknown. Trying to understand God through science, reasoning helps us discover more knowledge. Yet as we try to uncover more knowledge, we are left with even greater questions. Everything is mysterious to the core, but I'm certainly not afraid of it, nor are most religious people I know.

Please don't bring cliches and strawmen arguments to this thread. Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

 

[Thales750]

That would be turning away from God, not to mention breaking multiple Commandments. God does not want us to slaughter each other in His name.

God and Jesus are about being in harmony with the universe, not about getting our undies in a bunch. It is fallacious to think that believing in God starts wars. It doesn't. People who have turned away from His teachings or gain perverse viewpoints through their own improper interpretations twist things around to fit their own agendas.

As far as the fear of the unknown, I don't follow what you mean. Believing in God or not doesn't have to do with a fear of the unknown. Trying to understand God through science, reasoning helps us discover more knowledge. Yet as we try to uncover more knowledge, we are left with even greater questions. Everything is mysterious to the core, but I'm certainly not afraid of it, nor are most religious people I know.

Please don't bring cliches and strawmen arguments to this thread. Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Herein lies the crux of my continued participation, in this irrelevant discussion.
They say that religion is the enemy, yet believing in God is nothing like having religion, the atheist here are more like that, than any “religious” one, from believers.
I’m just waiting for one of them to admit that atheism is a religion.
But they won’t; religious fanaticism prevents them.

 

[Alc]

Herein lies the crux of my continued participation, in this irrelevant discussion.
They say that religion is the enemy, yet believing in God is nothing like having religion, the atheist here are more like that, than any “religious” one, from believers.
I’m just waiting for one of them to admit that atheism is a religion.
But they won’t; religious fanaticism prevents them.

If it'll get you to post something past this little sticking point you're obsessing on, I will say - on behalf of all atheists - that atheism is a religion. Likewise, having money is the same as not having money, black is the same as white, and a full box is the same as one containing a vaccuum.

 

[Thales750]

If it'll get you to post something past this little sticking point you're obsessing on, I will say - on behalf of all atheists - that atheism is a religion. Likewise, having money is the same as not having money, black is the same as white, and a full box is the same as one containing a vaccuum.

It's the only "sticking point" of any value. Fervor is what you say you abhor.

Yet you seemed to have taken the one thing from it that you despise and you emulated it.

I even gave you guys a dictionary definitions and you fervorently (just made up that word) denied it…

Just like the religious, fanatics that you are.

Don't get me wrong, I do not hold it against you. Some of my best friends are atheist.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

hahaha. If you had started with that, and didn't explain that you were religious, I would have taken 100-to-1 odds on that bet. A very hollier-than-thou attitude. If you look at that sentence, it is very conducive of a shepard-sheep dichotomy.

I’m just waiting for one of them to admit that atheism is a religion.

I understand what you're saying, you're just making a terrible case of it. You're using the word 'religion' to mean an organization united by common goals/beliefs.

If you want someone to admit that atheists can be very organized, and many of them are very dismissive of other's viewpoints (pertaining to religion), then I'd freely admit that.

But it really boils down to playing with semantics. Atheists view 'religion' as a bad word, so to speak. They take pride in being free from/above/beyond religion as they think of it as having a bad affect on people.

You're trying to convince them that they are doing the same bad things as religious people/groups do by using the word 'religion' to define their actions.

People have played with semantics for ages and ages and I am sure they will for ages and ages to come. The reason you're having such difficulty, however, is that you're trying to use a term that means 'having no religion' to mean 'having a religion'. In essence, you're trying to completely change the definition of the word to mean the opposite of what it does now.

Edit: If you were interested in advancing your root cause, i.e. atheists act like religious fanatics, you could easily come from a different angle and have more success.

 

[Alc]

It's the only "sticking point" of any value. Fervor is what you say you abhor.

Yet you seamed to have taken the one thing from it that you despise and you emulated it.

I even gave you guys a dictionary definitions and you fervorently (just made up that word) denied it…

Just like the religious, fanatics that you are.

Don't get me wrong, I do not hold it against you. Some of my best friends are atheist.

Just out of curiosity, could you point out where I said I despise fervour? I can't remember writing that, but perhaps I did it in a moment of religious pique. If by 'you' you mean 'athests generally', you really should say so.

If we (all of us) accept that we're talking about religion using the definition you supplied and which I didn't then deny - go back and check if you want - then you can say that football supporting is a religion, which it plainly isn't. Many people are said to follow a particular team religiously, that doesn't make the activity itself a religion.

You're rather belittling religion if you insist on this definition.

 

[Rich]

That would be turning away from God, not to mention breaking multiple Commandments. God does not want us to slaughter each other in His name.

No, he demands our absolute love and condems those that don't reciprocate to eternal hell, the God of peace and love, I don't think so

God and Jesus are about being in harmony with the universe, not about getting our undies in a bunch. It is fallacious to think that believing in God starts wars. It doesn't. People who have turned away from His teachings or gain perverse viewpoints through their own improper interpretations twist things around to fit their own agendas.

Who told you this and what evidence do you have to support it?

Please don't bring cliches and strawmen arguments to this thread. Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

and please don't bring fairystories to this thread, try sticking to the facts

 

[Rabbie]

With every spoken word the atheist on this site prove to all open minded listeners that theirs is the true religion

What exactly are you saying here? If I took your words at face value you would be going against everything you have previously said.

BTW I don't find it helpful for you lump all atheists together in your remarks. I don't lump all christians together because I know there are differences of belief between different sects. Some beleive in evolution, some in the literal truth of the genesis story. I don't have a problem with your beliefs provided you don't force them on me but I read in "The International Herals Tribune" that it is the duty of every true christian to try to covert all non-christians to their faith. Many of my atheist friends agree with me that everyone is entitled to their beliefs provided they don't force them on other people. Unfortunately this appears to be impossible to many religious people of different faiths.

 

[Rabbie]

Not sure if this will be helpful to this discussion but then How many of the posts are

Defintion of Religions from Wikipedia

A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Bearing in mind the section in bold I would say this excludes Atheism from being a religion

Have a good day

 

[laxster]

hahaha. If you had started with that, and didn't explain that you were religious, I would have taken 100-to-1 odds on that bet. A very hollier-than-thou attitude. If you look at that sentence, it is very conducive of a shepard-sheep dichotomy.

Actually, it's one of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, a wonderful method of sharpening yourself, opening yourself up, and begin to make sense of the endless flow of communication around us. If you seek first to be understood, you try to make your point known before stopping to think what the other person may be saying. You might think it's "shepard-sheep" but to listen to what other people have to say and stepping into their shoes. What is wrong about listening to someone else, questioning them, and trying to understand what they are about before speaking? Why is it so much easier to talk than it is to listen?

I am seeking to understand here. I want to see things from someone else's paradigm to truly understand where they come from, and then share my paradigm (and it would be truly wonderful for that person to step into my paradigm for the moment). It's not the best idea to always measure up what someone says to your own life experience without thinking of their life experience first.

Seeking first to understand, and then to be understood is really the most effective form of communication possible.

No, he demands our absolute love and condems those that don't reciprocate to eternal hell, the God of peace and love, I don't think so

This is a classic example of a strawman. Prop up the opposing side's argument in a completely false way which makes it easy to knock down. Nice. Do you even know what hell is? Do you know how many times it is mentioned in the Bible? Do you know what hell actually is? (If you think that word refers to an underworld with lakes of fire and a horned man, you are wrong!) How do you presume to know what Christianity is all about, and reject it, when it appears that you have interpreted it all to fit your beliefs instead of being open and diplomatic to those who think something different?

and please don't bring fairystories to this thread, try sticking to the fact

What fairy stories are you talking about? Are you refering to "fairy stories" that occurred thousands of years ago which can't be verified? Yes, what I believe is a leap of faith. Just because I can't prove miracles that occured a long time ago doesn't mean that they didn't happen. I can't prove they happened, but you can't prove they didn't happen. And even then, the point of the stories in the Bible isn't even whether they happened or not, it's that they happen on a daily basis. Just as Jesus spoke in parables to teach lessons, we tell stories and give hypothetical examples to help people understand a certain point. And that's a fact!

Why are you getting so bent out-of-shape? I'm trying to understand the logical thought process behind atheism and share my logical thought process behind the existence of a Greater Being.

 

[Rabbie]

Why are you getting so bent out-of-shape? I'm trying to understand the logical thought process behind atheism and share my logical thought process behind the existence of a Greater Being.

I think it was Descartes who when asked by Napoleon why there was no reference to God in his theory of the universe replied that he had no need of that hypothesis.

We are agreed on evolution being correct rather than the Genesis creation story. I just find it more reasonable to postulate that life evolved here on earth without supernatural help. Logically I feel it is cheating to say "Well there was this god who always existed who started the whole thing off". To me it's a bit like the old serials which left the hero in an impossible position at the end of an episode and then started the next with "With one mighty bound he was free"