Atheists and theists are the same.

[The_Doc_Man]

This particular atheist does not believe in anything that could ever be anthropomorphized or intelligent. Nature (as in Mother Nature) is not in the picture either, though nature as a collection of overlapping, mathematically definite rules in physics, chemistry, and biology is OK. I say "definite rules" but don't actually presume that we know the rules completely, only that these rules exist.

Saying that I believe in "a force of life" is too strong. Semantically, THAT statement bothers me too. Part of the problem is that English is a complete language, which according to Goedel means that it is an incorrect language. A "force of life" makes it sound like one of those laws guarantees the existence of life. I understand you might have been trying to concisely make a statement, but in this case, concise statements mask the various caveats required to explain the position fully.

I am not 100% convinced but maybe 99.999...99% convinced that abiogenesis occurred as the result of an accident. That is, we are here because we are here. (Yes, Zen rears its head...) I do not look for purpose externally imposed. My life is what I make of it. Showing love to my family; teaching others about what I know; earning an honest and decent living; passing along some of the positive experience I've had in my life - these are my purposes.

The folks who have to look to God to provide purpose always confuse me. If our only purpose is to stroke the ego of a narcissistic being (i.e. "to glorify God"), why is that being worth our effort? And just how perfect is a narcissistic being, really? (Don't ask the narcissist, though... you'll always get a self-serving answer.)

 

[Friday]

I am not 100% convinced but maybe 99.999...99% convinced that abiogenesis occurred as the result of an accident. That is, we are here because we are here. (Yes, Zen rears its head...) I do not look for purpose externally imposed. My life is what I make of it. Showing love to my family; teaching others about what I know; earning an honest and decent living; passing along some of the positive experience I've had in my life - these are my purposes.

The folks who have to look to God to provide purpose always confuse me. If our only purpose is to stroke the ego of a narcissistic being (i.e. "to glorify God"), why is that being worth our effort? And just how perfect is a narcissistic being, really? (Don't ask the narcissist, though... you'll always get a self-serving answer.)

Doc_Man, I couldn't have put it any better. May I have your permission to paraphrase you when responding to all the passionate Christians I work with? Not a day goes by that I don't receive an email from a co-worker reminding me of how great god is. They all know I am an atheist. I usually just don't respond.

 

[Adam Caramon]

There's something I never understood about the whole heaven/hell thing. Supposedly Lucifer tried to take God's place, and so God cast him down to Hell. Now, applying a bit of logic to this story (applying logic to the bible never really works, but anywho), if Lucifer wanted to take God's place, and also wanted to really scorn God, why not make Hell like Heaven?

God casts down nonbelievers and sinners and what have you to Hell. What better way to tell God to shove it then to embrace those people with open arms, and allow them to live in paradise?

 

[Galaxiom]

^ It is just the nature of politics.

Both sides try to make out they are like heaven and having the other side in power would be like hell.

In reality they fight over the middle ground to such an extent that they are barely distinguishable from each other.

Just read the Bible and you will see that God's behaviour is remarkably similar to Satan. Allah, Yhw, Jehovah, Satan, call them what you will but they all pander to the same pathetic human failings of self interest and greed.

Just like politics, the religious believers choose their team by who they think will pork barrell their side the best. Yhw told the Hebrews He will help them massacre everyone already in the Promised Land and it would be theirs. Allah told Mohammed He would help the Moslems take over using exactly the same techniques.

They all say that the believers must stick with their side and ultimatley only their kind would be left standing. It is all pathetic bigotry that appeals only to the intellectually and philosophically corrupt among us. The sad fact is those types are the dominant form of humanity.

 

[dan-cat]

The folks who have to look to God to provide purpose always confuse me.

I don't see why.

You've admitted you require the belief of an eternal constant that all else is subject to for things to fall into place for you.

You haven't gone as far as put a beard and booming voice on it but you've illustrated nicely how the human mind looks to an external, infallible constant to explain the order of the universe.

I just find it hypocritical that you deride the theist for playing in the same ball park.

 

[dan-cat]

They all say that the believers must stick with their side and ultimatley only their kind would be left standing. It is all pathetic bigotry that appeals only to the intellectually and philosophically corrupt among us. The sad fact is those types are the dominant form of humanity.

Good grief would you please get off your pseudo tragic horse of suppression.

Have you ever considered that the facets of religion you speak of are simply manifestations of base human qualities?

Corrupt individuals will use any tool to ply their trade. I could spend the rest of the day listing manipulative methods used by the greedy that have nothing to do with spirituality.

Here's just one

Link

it's much the same tack as the "agree with me or be morally bankrupt" stand that you've adopted.

 

[dan-cat]

God casts down nonbelievers and sinners and what have you to Hell. What better way to tell God to shove it then to embrace those people with open arms, and allow them to live in paradise?

Well the devil did try to tempt Jesus in much the same way but I think fear is a much more powerful motivator.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Well the devil did try to tempt Jesus in much the same way but I think fear is a much more powerful motivator.

I agree with you, but that's setting the focus on religion as a human construct. Academically we can look at religion and see why fear was used to keep people in line.

But let's pretend for a moment that God is real, and the Devil is real. The Devil is doing a service for God by tormenting all the people who did not listen to God while alive. Why would he do it?

To paraphrase a quote from Mass Effect: "I shall inflict upon (God) the greatest insult an enemy can receive: to be ignored"

 

[dan-cat]

But let's pretend for a moment that God is real, and the Devil is real. The Devil is doing a service for God by tormenting all the people who did not listen to God while alive. Why would he do it?

Just to clarify I believe that the Devil is simply a human tool to manipulate by fear. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny because it's not designed to. It's simply a coercive tack constructed to suppress questioning by a narrowing down of the options. You don't think rationally when you're scared. That's it's thrust.

My point was that religion isn't a pre-requisite for this. It's just one of many manifestations of it.

 

[Rich]

Doc_Man, I couldn't have put it any better. May I have your permission to paraphrase you when responding to all the passionate Christians I work with? Not a day goes by that I don't receive an email from a co-worker reminding me of how great god is. They all know I am an atheist. I usually just don't respond.

Doesn't the junk mail filter work Dennis?

 

[dan-cat]

I usually just don't respond.

I like to think I'm immune to advertising but all the same I'm still with Geico...

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Friday, you may certainly paraphrase me if the situation arises.

Dan-cat:

I don't see why.

You've admitted you require the belief of an eternal constant that all else is subject to for things to fall into place for you.

Dan-cat, the difference between the two sides is the sentience of God versus the total non-sentience of these eternal natural laws.

I claim neither benificence nor maleficence in that which is eternal. I claim no intent or purpose in that which is eternal. I claim no narcissistic need for glorification in that which is eternal. There is no morality in nature. You are born, you live, you die. In between, there is a veritable panoply of optional steps - and for the most part, we get to choose the direction in which we step. Before you are born and after you die ... nothingness.

The God Squad, on the other hand, claims that their sky-daddy has sentience, benificense, purpose, and a commandment for glorification. They espouse some ethereal level of absolute morality by claiming God as an absolute moral reference point. They claim that we all follow God's purpose, we do stuff because it is God's plan. They claim eternal life for all, but eternal condemnation for those who stray from their moral reference point.

The result of that difference is that I do not have to check with the sky-daddy before I do something. I can choose to empower myself, make my own choices, and not "put my life in God's hands." I will not be condemned to eternal torment if I do something immoral - because immorality and immortality are Man's ideas.

To me, immorality is simply defined by the golden rule in any of its many forms. "Do unto others etc. etc. etc." Do no needless harm to anyone or anything. Can't be simpler than that. Immortality is defined by what you leave behind when you finally leave.

 

[Mike375]

The God Squad, on the other hand, claims that their sky-daddy has sentience, benificense, purpose, and a commandment for glorification. They espouse some ethereal level of absolute morality by claiming God as an absolute moral reference point. They claim that we all follow God's purpose, we do stuff because it is God's plan. They claim eternal life for all, but eternal condemnation for those who stray from their moral reference point.

Like most atheists you appear to think your opposite number is a religious person. I and many others would regard ourselves as having zero religion but at the same time we think there is something out there that is beyond the science class.

The result of that difference is that I do not have to check with the sky-daddy before I do something. I can choose to empower myself, make my own choices, and not "put my life in God's hands." I will not be condemned to eternal torment if I do something immoral - because immorality and immortality are Man's ideas.

I am quite sure many atheists should be called areligious. I guess also the atheist would be mainly aimed at the idea of only one god.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I guess also the atheist would be mainly aimed at the idea of only one god.

For me, the aim is "no god or gods" and no supernatural forces or events. Events that I don't understand don't have to be supernatural just because I don't understand them.

 

[Alc]

I guess also the atheist would be mainly aimed at the idea of only one god.

Can only speak for myself, but I don't think there are any gods. I've never thought of one ro another as being more or less likely than the next?

Good grief would you please get off your pseudo tragic horse of suppression.

If I only had a dollar for every time I hear that in a week

 

[Rabbie]

I am quite sure many atheists should be called areligious. I guess also the atheist would be mainly aimed at the idea of only one god.

Not quite sure what you mean here. Surely any atheist rejects all gods not just one god.

After all, all monotheistists have denied the existence of all polytheist gods. I don't know of any Jews, Christians or Muslims who believe in the Greek gods, the Roman gods, the Scandinavian gods or the Hindu gods.

 

[Galaxiom]

Just read the Bible and you will see that God's behaviour is remarkably similar to Satan. Allah, Yhw, Jehovah, Satan, call them what you will but they all pander to the same pathetic human failings of self interest and greed.

Just like politics, the religious believers choose their team by who they think will pork barrell their side the best. Yhw told the Hebrews He will help them massacre everyone already in the Promised Land and it would be theirs. Allah told Mohammed He would help the Moslems take over using exactly the same techniques.

They all say that the believers must stick with their side and ultimatley only their kind would be left standing. It is all pathetic bigotry that appeals only to the intellectually and philosophically corrupt among us. The sad fact is those types are the dominant form of humanity.

Have you ever considered that the facets of religion you speak of are simply manifestations of base human qualities?

Corrupt individuals will use any tool to ply their trade.

Yes I have considered this old standard from the religious apologists and thoroughly debunked it many times.

It asserts that these are mere aberations perpetrated by a few wayward individuals subverting the basically sound philosophy of religion. In fact, fascist doctrine, total compliance and enforcment by murder are central to the Abrahamic faiths. These qualities are propounded in detail in their Holy Books. Success in achieving widespread brutal genocide is upheld as evidence for the glory of the deity and the rightousness of the cause.

It pretends that "base human qualities" integral to the human condition have corrupted the central message of the faith. In fact religion panders to, develops and empowers those with the worst of these "base" qualities.

It ignores the fact that many of us are not driven by greed and power but rather the achievment of greater good for the whole of society and develop our character upon being conscious of our motives and actions.

Religion bases its decisions on total obedience to mindless dogma. Indeed the primary foundational story of the Abrahamic faiths is the test of Abraham's obedience by demonstrating his willingness to murder his own son at the behest of his God. Amoral, unthinking obedience is not the misdirection by an individual but utterly central to the faith.

Those who dare to question the dogma have long been convicted of heresy and subjected to brutal torture and murder. Only the rise of secular government granted through the blood of those who stood up against the power of religion has allowed the development of sensible morality. Heretics still suffer the brutality of the church in many parts of the world today.

I could spend the rest of the day listing manipulative methods used by the greedy that have nothing to do with spirituality.

Here we see another fallacous defence by the apologists. Pointing to other atrocities in no way lessens the gravity of the crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of God.

Abraham's minions continue to exalt and glorify the genocides comitted in the name of their God. (The neo-Nazis at least have the dignity to deny the atrocities of the Third Reich.) The stark reality is that in one of the greatest ironies of history the Nazis emulated the horror of the massacres perpetrated by the Hebrews in the Bible using exactly the same techniques of vilification to manipulate the followers into a frenzy of killing.

The Chosen Race and the Promised Land of the Hebrews are reflected perfectly in Hitler's Master Race and the Father Land. Genocide was central to both strategies.

As for the link you provided to a story about the bigotry and prejudice of GW Bush and his militarist regime I can only wonder which side of the argument you mean to support. Bush used exactly the same techniques of vilification, murder and theft clearly set out in the Bible. The USA clearly comes dangeroulsy closer to a theocracy than any other Western democracy in the world.

I would have at least expected some reference to Stalin, Ghengis Kahn or Mao-Tse-Dung as evidence of attrocities by the non-religious. Even then you would have been wrong because these leaders held their own religious beliefs that simply placed themselves as Gods rather than relying on an ethereal deity.

You also make the common mistake of portraying religion and spirituality as the same thing. Religion has hijacked the notion of spirituality for its own purposes. Spirituality can and does exist without religion or God.

I consider myself a very deeply spiritual person. My spirituality is based on my connections with those around me and the environment. I exalt these links, my place in nature and the wonder of sentience.

It is no accident that these are the very things derided by the church lest people find a sense of spirituality outside of the confines of their manipulative dogma.