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moke123

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The Trump rallies vs BLM protesters were viewed differently by you regarding risk.
I just presented articles. In my opinion the masks make a big difference.
 

Mike Krailo

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There is a big problem excusing any crowd of people masks or not and then condemning the other group. It is clearly done for political reasons. You might have noticed people are wearing masks all over the place now. Why are business that are obeying social distancing rules and have gone above and beyond to make things safe for customers (with mask policies) being told that they are not allowed to adapt to the situation at hand as if they are too stupid? I guess the masks really don't make a difference in those cases now, do they.

Teachers can protest and stay home and still get paid while hard working businesses are banned from supporting their own families? It is very clear that these rules don't apply to the one's making the rules. The plan seems clear though. Just destroy everything that has been created because that is somehow going to make it better later on. Vaccines are on the horizon but that doesn't make any difference because that wouldn't destroy enough businesses. If the masks make a difference, tell that to the teachers. They are way too scared to go back to the school even with the masks.

Our entire way of voting in the general election has been tainted due to an over reaction to this damn virus. Dems seen the opportunity to capitalize on it and simply skirted around the State Laws making up some new rules unlawfully. Originally these rules were supposed to have safeguards in place, but the elected officials sought to do away with the safeguards and now we have a tainted election. Ohio had the safeguards in place, no problem there. Florida had the safeguards in place, no problem there.

As Shifty Schift would say, "The evidence is in plain sight." It's not just one big fraud, it's a lot of little frauds that added up to a great big fraud.
 

Steve R.

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I just presented articles. In my opinion the masks make a big difference.
For the purpose of argument, lets assume that masks make a "big" difference. In 2019, one source said that 38,800 people died in automobile accidents. Well, if we reduce the speed that cars can drive down to 0 MPH we could "save" all those lives. The reality is that society has accepted that death rate as normal. (Of course, we still attempt to make cars and roads safer so that less people die.)

Mask wearing has a marginal benefit. But addressing Covid-19 is not simply about wearing a mask, but innumerable other factors such social distancing, travel restrictions, and business closures. Then there are the blatant negatives with combating Covid-19 such as fear mongering, delayed medical treatments, loss of jobs, mental health, etc. At some subjective point you need to "accept" certain (even if you don't like it) death rates as "normal" to allow other activities to take place. We have, as a society, already "accepted" deaths associated with driving since driving is necessary for many of our daily activities. The same holds true for combating Covid-19.
 

moke123

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Businesses go bankrupt everyday and people lose their jobs all the time. Shouldn't we just accept those too in favor of staying alive?
 

Isaac

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For the purpose of argument, lets assume that masks make a "big" difference. In 2019, one source said that 38,800 people died in automobile accidents. Well, if we reduce the speed that cars can drive down to 0 MPH we could "save" all those lives. The reality is that society has accepted that death rate as normal. (Of course, we still attempt to make cars and roads safer so that less people die.)

Mask wearing has a marginal benefit. But addressing Covid-19 is not simply about wearing a mask, but innumerable other factors such social distancing, travel restrictions, and business closures. Then there are the blatant negatives with combating Covid-19 such as fear mongering, delayed medical treatments, loss of jobs, mental health, etc. At some subjective point you need to "accept" certain (even if you don't like it) death rates as "normal" to allow other activities to take place. We have, as a society, already "accepted" deaths associated with driving since driving is necessary for many of our daily activities. The same holds true for combating Covid-19.
Businesses go bankrupt everyday and people lose their jobs all the time. Shouldn't we just accept those too in favor of staying alive?

It's all a matter of balancing the competing interests, and very subjective. I don't have the answers, but yes, at some level/volume of people experiencing financial ruin, it's worth more than some level/volume of deaths. What everyone argues about is what's the right levels, and are we even accurately assessing them (probably not, it's pretty hard on the one side).
 

moke123

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It's all a matter of balancing the competing interests, and very subjective. I don't have the answers, but yes, at some level/volume of people experiencing financial ruin, it's worth more than some level/volume of deaths. What everyone argues about is what's the right levels, and are we even accurately assessing them (probably not, it's pretty hard on the one side).
So do we have death panels?
 

Isaac

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Well what do you call it nowadays? We make decisions in favor of business, over concerns of death every day.

Traffic kills, skydiving kills, many things kill - as in, we know we would eliminate x-# of deaths by eliminating them, but we still do it.

That's the argument. On the one extreme is total financial ruin for everyone in the entire country and minimal deaths because of it. On the other extreme is zero restrictions or precautions of any kind that have any burden on business, and maximum deaths because of it. I'm generalizing to make a point.

I respect that people fall in different places on the continuum....but you can't tell me you're not somewhere on the continuum.
 

The_Doc_Man

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From the stories I heard from my parents about life during the 1930s depression, a lot of people died because of lack of money to pay for medical treatment and food. That wasn't even a pandemic and the economic hardships traumatized the country. People died because of it. Now we have a choice - die from COVID-19 or die from economic deprivation. Like Isaac, I don't know the balance point but I can easily understand the horrible frustration that people feel because of losing jobs, facing eviction, feeding hungry kids... I don't have to face those but I have met people with those problems. The only thing that i will say that I believe here is that at the moment there is absolutely no correct answer. The vaccines will change the playing field but they aren't here yet and won't be here in volume for quite a while. I believe that in the balancing act of COVID vs shutdowns, there IS no correct balance point.
 

Isaac

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From the stories I heard from my parents about life during the 1930s depression, a lot of people died because of lack of money to pay for medical treatment and food. That wasn't even a pandemic and the economic hardships traumatized the country. People died because of it. Now we have a choice - die from COVID-19 or die from economic deprivation. Like Isaac, I don't know the balance point but I can easily understand the horrible frustration that people feel because of losing jobs, facing eviction, feeding hungry kids... I don't have to face those but I have met people with those problems. The only thing that i will say that I believe here is that at the moment there is absolutely no correct answer. The vaccines will change the playing field but they aren't here yet and won't be here in volume for quite a while. I believe that in the balancing act of COVID vs shutdowns, there IS no correct balance point.
I agree, it's a continuum and nobody can authoritatively say: "my position, which lies barely to the right or left of your position, is perfect and yours is bad" , thus we debate endlessly.

Liberals are always telling me that anti-abortion Republicans are too focused on life/death moments and not as focused enough on the rest of 'life', well, here's a chance to apply that same argument to the liberal their self. No, I don't want people to die of covid, but I'm equally concerned about the rest of life being ruined.

My sister in law has a some free time and thus is very active (even on staff now I think) of their local Salvation Army. She sees these stories of financial ruin all day, every day. Her attitude on lockdowns has changed at least somewhat during this time of serving there.
Of course then you'll run across an ICU nurse who sees the opposite emphasis.

It's just a hard balance to strike.

Trust me, I take my "right of center" position very solemnly, my wife has recently taken several trips to visit family in Mexico, and it's B.A.D. I've been near-traumatized just from hearing about it. Just yesterday on our evening walk she mentioned that two more friends of the family died yesterday, one was in her 40's. Then I think of the town in question, where people can rarely find a job in the first place, and I think of those few that have jobs no longer having them - people are literally starving like you see in Africa to some extent. And of course, crime shoots up, people get involved in things they otherwise wouldn't have, lives are forever changed.

Recently there was an article about how the suicides in a month in Japan outweighed the coronavirus deaths, really made me think hard.
 

Pat Hartman

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In my opinion the masks make a big difference.
Then you don't know how big a virus is and you've never read the label on the package your mask came in. FYI, none of them promise to protect you from a virus. Even the N95 mask which are the "best" don't provide "safety". You also don't know that prior to CDS (COVID derangement syndrome) the "science" on masks was that healthy people should not wear them except is certain circumstances. Here are some opinions based on the "science" pre-COVID before the Left found a crisis that they didn't want to waste.
Masks Don’t Stop Viruses – The Proof | WSAU News/Talk 550 AM · 99.9 FM | Wausau, Stevens Point

You might want to look at the statistics for how many people actually die from COVID-19 by age group. If you are over 80 or you have co-morbidities, you probably need to take care of yourself and do some social distancing. If you're young and healthy, your chances of dying from COVID are miniscule. You are much more in danger of dying from a seasonal flu. Compare the numbers of people who die every year from other things to the number who die from COVID and ask yourself why the number of cancer deaths is going to be higher this year because people are too afraid to go to their doctor to have symptoms checked out. How about all the young people whose lives are ruined and see no way out except for suicide?

Last time I checked the death rate, it was down to .199 percent in the US and only slightly higher around the world. Seasonal flu is normally between .1 and .2 However, we don't get hysterical and shut down society to stop the spread of flu. The media is still pushing fear. Fear is used to keep the public compliant. They won't let you forget the early projections where the death rate was going to be over 10%. That seems to be 50-100 times worse than it turned out to be. What was originally panic worthy, turned out to be just a bad flu that hit one segment of the population much worse than other segments. Notice that the media Never report the death rate compared to deaths by other causes like flu (oh I forgot, we don't count flu any more). All we hear is WE HAVE 10,000 NEW CASES today. THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END. Completely forgetting that we are testing everyone who wants to be tested so people are testing positive who don't have and will never have any symptoms. Also, we don't get an accurate report of why deaths are higher in some places than in others. I think the death rate in Connecticut is twice the national average? WHY? because our governor who lives by the "science" won't allow certain classes of drugs that have proven very effective in the early stages to be used here unless people are admitted to the hospital. Of course, once you're sick enough to enter the hospital, you're beyond the help of those drugs and need the expensive drugs. Could it be big pharma who convinced Lamont that only expensive drugs work? Why has Africa been largely spared from COVID-19. Could it be that hydroxychloroquine actually has a prophylactic effect?

I have some news folks. EVERYONE dies. We all would prefer it to be later rather than sooner. But attempting to stop ANYONE from EVER catching COVID is insane. Virus' naturally die out due to herd immunity. Isolating people simply slows the exposure rate and is making it harder for us to achieve herd immunity. Meanwhile we are destroying the lives of millions of people for no reason except politics.
 

Mike Krailo

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There is no way, no how, Biden got all those votes fairly in the swing states. There is just no way. Many ways to get them unfairly but no way he got the claimed amount of votes in those states fairly and constitutionally. I contend that it just wasn't the voting machines, there were many methods used in every possible way imaginable to get the count where they wanted it. If we even did a quarter amount of investigation into this like was done in the Russian collusion scam, you would see it all laid bare. If there is nothing to hide, everyone should have no trouble with the investigation.

You can't investigate Hunter (it's a hoax), you can't investigate Biden (Ukraine dealings), you can't investigate swalwell, you can't investigate voter fraud, only Trump and anyone associated with him can be investigated. We can use anonymous sources, virtually no evidence to start our investigations but you cannot do the same against us because you don't have enough evidence.
 

Pat Hartman

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Here's a link to the hearings in Georgia on Tuesday. There is a software expert at about 1:15 in that talks about how software has the ability to identify ballots made on a copy machine rather than printed. But, what's worse, is his examination of two ballots from Fulton country. One ballot is from Democrat leaning precinct and the other from a Republican leaning precinct. The differences will make you want to puke.


 

Mike Krailo

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They better produce those physical ballots for adjudication. Thanks for that video link Pat.
 

moke123

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Ready for some fact checks?
Your expert, J. Hutton Pulitzer, used to be J. Jovan Philyaw the inventor of the CueCat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat . From there he went on to be a treasure hunter and appeared on the Oak Island TV show claiming that the Ark of the Covenant was buried there.
 

Pat Hartman

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So you are assuming he is lying about his patents and is not a subject matter expert?

Did he make up the differences in the ballots issued in different precincts?

Did he make up the printed misalignment that forced the Republican leaning precincts to be over adjudicated due to registration errors?

Did he make up the adjudication percentage that was published in the newspaper?

Any port in a storm :)

Happy New Year anyway?

PS, I actually had one of those CueCats. It was a novelty and I didn't find it particularly useful. It did however, encourage me to get a wireless barcode reader for my client. So, at least for me, it did serve a purpose. My client was very happy even though the wireless barcode reader was fairly expensive. It was very useful to them for controlling their shipping and inventory.
 

Pat Hartman

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I got a chance to finish the whole video last night after dinner. It gets worse if you can believe it. Further on in the video, around 4:22. They bring Pulitzer back to tell the committee that someone from his staff has hacked the voting pads and they were watching voting traffic come and go. These are machines which people keep swearing are not connected to the internet!!!!!! Then around 4:27, they have people who are analyzing the data feed. As each report is made from a polling station, you would expect the number of votes to go up. You would never expect report 23 to be less than report 22 and yet we can see it. And mysteriously as Trump's totals go down by x, Biden's go up by x! What a coincidence. You can't make this stuff up.

I wrote to the members of the Georgia Senate committee that was having the hearings to remind them that they are running out of time to do the right thing. As you can see on the video, the members seem pretty convinced by the evidence but there is no fire in them to actually do anything. So will they do the right thing and send Trump electors next week? Still don't know. Please write to them. I also wrote to the Senate Pro Tempore in Pennsylvania as well as a couple others in leadership roles. They really need to hear from us before it is too late.

I sent emails yesterday but I printed a letter and singed it. I'm taking it to FedEx tomorrow morning and paying $38 to have it delivered Monday by 10 AM.

Here's the info for the Georgia Senate:


Senate Judiciary Committee Members

Stone, Jesse Chairman
Cowsert, Bill Vice Chairman
Tillery, Blake Secretary
Heath, Bill Member
Jones II, Harold V. Member
Kennedy, John F. Member
Ligon, Jr., William T. Member
Parent, Elena Member
Rhett, Michael 'Doc' Member
Strickland, Brian Member

History and Duties
The Committee on Judiciary has general jurisdiction over legislation affecting judicial proceedings dealing with civil practice and procedure. Its jurisdiction also includes civil liberties as well as governmental information and frequently will consider constitutional issues.

Capitol Office
325-A Coverdell Legislative Office Building
Atlanta, GA 30334
Phone: (404) 463-1314

Here's all their email addresses so you don't have to do this yourself:

jesse.stone@senate.ga.gov; bill.cowsert@senate.ga.gov; blake.tillery@senate.ga.gov; billheath@billheath.net; harold.jones@senate.ga.gov; john.kennedy@senate.ga.gov; william.ligon@senate.ga.gov; elena.parent@senate.ga.gov; michael.rhett@senate.ga.gov; brian.strickland@senate.ga.gov

Here is the text of the email I sent. It has more "God" and country than I would normally write but these are desperate times and we need all the help we can get. I even used a little Jewish/Catholic guilt for good measure:)

December 31, 2020

Senate Judiciary Committee

325-A Coverdell Legislative Office Building
Atlanta, GA 30334



Dear Senators,

I am not a resident of Georgia, but I am an American citizen, and I will be affected by your decision regarding the fraud committed by several of your counties in the November 3rd election if you allow evil to prevail. My future as well as yours and that of our beloved country rests in your hands.

I just finished watching the live stream of the subcommittee hearing from Dec 30th. It brought me to tears. I cannot believe that this is the country I love. I cannot believe that you are going to allow this to happen. It is not enough to prevent this from ever happening again, you must stop this coup from succeeding. America is relying on you. The courts have failed us completely. You at least, gave the evidence a hearing and I believe that it was convincing, and you feel the need to act. There are certainly more than enough ballots in question to account for the tiny margin Biden won by. However, I did not see any urgency. I realize that the Senate moves at a glacial pace and that is right for most issues. You were going to write a letter requesting that evidence be produced but WHEN??? This is not something that can wait until tomorrow, let alone next week or next month. Why not send a courier and have him wait for it? No one is even going to look at your letter before Monday and they are just going to sit on it. The corruption of the deep state is just that, deep. Evade, obstruct, destroy. You will end up saying “oh well, we tried”. Bull. This is a case where you need to raise heaven and hell and you must succeed. “Trying” is not going to save this country.

I saw a report from earlier today that the shredding trucks were at the center again. Could they be shredding ballots? What will happen if they succeed in destroying the evidence? Are you going to throw up your hands in defeat? Why did your police fail to respond to a crime in process call? You cannot let this stand. Destruction of evidence is confirmation of the fraud and everyone involved should be charged with the appropriate crime. Everyone on that Fulton video should be charged with a crime. The fact that the FBI and the DOJ have not even bothered to interview these people tells you how much of a crime we are witnessing.

I worry that we will see a second civil war if you allow this election to be stolen. The majority of American voters voted for Trump. You will go down in infamy if you allow this election to be stolen. Think about that. YOUR name in the history books. Do you want your children to see your shame? How about your mother?

Stand up for your country. Do the right thing. Send the Trump electors to Congress. Other states will follow if you do the right thing. One state stopping the count on election night is suspicious. Six states is a coup d’état.

You only need enough backbone to allow a real audit to be performed by the technical people who testified. Having actual evidence of fraud will take all the Democrat heat off you. Why do you think the courts have been rejecting the lawsuits out of hand? They don’t want to know anything. They can’t hear the evidence; it is too damning. They do not want to have to take the stand that is yours to take. An individual judge would be ruined by the cancel culture. Even the Justices of the Supreme Court allowed the cancel culture to keep them from protecting the Constitution. They made it very clear that the Democrats are correct – the Constitution is merely a suggestion and can be ignored if it gets in your way. You would only have had to watch an hour of the Kavanaugh hearings to see how evil the cancel culture can be. None of the Justices were willing to be called Trump toadies for standing up for the Constitution. Doesn't matter that Trump was on the side of the Constitution. The Democrats and the media would see it as defending Trump rather than defending the Constitution. Only two justices had the nerve to intervene and they did very little.

This would have been over the week after the election if the evidence had been made available for a forensic audit. Evade, obstruct, destroy. WHY are election officials in the other states in question as well as in Georgia acting so guilty if there is no there, there? In your heart you know the answer. You’ve seen the evidence in your own state. Why is the press and social media suppressing conversations regarding the steal? They hate the Orangeman. He’s ruined everything. Put aside your feelings about Trump. If you would not let this happen to Biden, you cannot in good conscience let it happen to Trump. Don’t make my grandchildren grow up in a banana republic where the people who count the votes determine the election results.

Please, be brave. Do the right thing. Send the Trump electors to Congress and call your fellow Senators in the other states where the fraud was perpetrated and convince them to do the right thing. God bless you and God bless America.
 
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Pat Hartman

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If you listen to the hearing around 4:22, when Pulitzer comes back, you can see that none of the Senators cared to find out anything about the connection. THAT is why they saw no evidence. They didn't want to see the evidence. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't mean it isn't true. They have also been insisting for months that NO ELECTION machines are connected to the internet, PERIOD. And now they're admitting that well, maybe these poll pads are connected but nothing else and these are not important. Just move along. There is nothing to see here.

The Georgia Sec. of State is most likely going to jail when his part in this crime is exposed. Someone authorized the different ballots for Republican vs Democrat leaning precincts. Someone authorized purchasing the Dominion machines.. That someone is obstructing justice to prevent the evidence from being exposed. If this election were clean, we would have had access to the voting machines - untampered with as well as the ballots the week after the election. Evade, Obstruct, Destroy. That's their plan. Run out the clock. They have every reason to believe they will succeed since the FBI and DOJ are complicit. In the fours years since Trump was elected, not one member of the attempted coup has been brought to justice. You had zero evidence of any Russian collusion and yet day after day Democrat members of Congress and former employees of the CIA, DOJ, and FBI went on TV and implied malfeasance on the part of Trump and his campaign. Using the weight of their security clearance which should have been revoked as they were walking out the door to lend credence to their slander.

Today, we have actual evidence of the Biden family corruption. We have evidence of election tampering in multiple states. This is not going to end well.
 

Pat Hartman

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Businesses go bankrupt everyday and people lose their jobs all the time. Shouldn't we just accept those too in favor of staying alive?
You are assuming that we are immortal. NEWS flash, we're not. Because of the fallacious assertion that we must stop everyone from contracting COVID, our government is destroying personal property and health and bankrupting a large segment of the population and putting the rest of us in a hole we can never dig out of. Companies favored by the Dems, are rolling in dough and want the lockdowns to continue forever. It is really good for big tech and companies like Amazon and the big box stores. The government is doing what Walmart failed to do in many communities no matter how hard they tried. The government is destroying the small business backbone of this country. I'm pretty sure as you make these smug posts, that you are collecting a salary or possibly a taxpayer paid pension. Otherwise, you would be far more concerned about the economy instead of potentially a few more deaths. You don't even know that the current lockdowns are preventing deaths. It is unknowable since there is no control. The "control" we have is the different approaches taken by different states and countries. Lockdowns do not save more lives from COVID deaths than they cause for other reasons. That is what the numbers are showing. Just compare NY and FL.

You might remember the real estate crash of 2008. You haven't seen anything until you see what happens to real estate, especially in city centers, over the next few years as companies default on or fail to renew their leases. All those people "working" from home have left a huge void in business space requirements. The government has killed thousands of small businesses permanently so we already see vacant storefronts everywhere.

How many people are dying from flu? We don't know. We don't care. We are counting all deaths as COVID to increase the fear and keep the population cowed in a corner. People outside ALONE, walking their dogs are wearing masks. How stupid is that? This is what the media, egged on by the Democrats, in order to tarnish Trump has done to this country.

Trump didn't cause COVID. The Chinese caused COVID. We just don't know whether they unleased it accidentally or on purpose. What we do know is that they cancelled internal China flights in and out of Wuhan but allowed international flights to spread the disease all over the world. Guess who's #1 to the Chinese. Then they gobbled up all the PPE on the open market while they were telling us it was not contagious. And let's not forget their attempts to corner the market on drugs used to treat flu like illnesses followed by later threats to cut off our supply of basic drug components. There is a paper trail documenting all this but the fact-finders won't find it for you because they don't find things that the Democrats don't want you to find when the facts contradict their narrative.
 

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