Is downloaded software unethical?

[arnelgp]

archive.com is not a torrent site, yet you can download (not the latest but still in use) softwares, mso2007, windows xp, windows 7.
the only thing you can't get (previously you can) is their ebooks.
these are not cracked versions.
where is the line between sharing and piracy?
so piracy when it is the latest version
and sharing when it is considered legacy?

what is Archive.com any way? here is their mission statement:

"The Internet Archive, a 501(c)(3) non-profit, is building a digital library of Internet sites and other cultural artifacts in digital form. Like a paper library, we provide free access to researchers, historians, scholars, the print disabled, and the general public.
Our mission is to provide Universal Access to All Knowledge."

 

[Jon]

So you mean that even though one single download is essentially meaningless, all of the downloads taken together do count, and thus, every single one (which is required to get many) counts? That makes sense. Now can we apply that to voting?

Can we apply that to the vaccine?

All the downloads together or just one does not increase the marginal cost of production. Voting is a binary outcome. The analogy doesn't match.

 

[Jon]

How many of us attempted ripping a protected audio CD or game CD? Hacking security-protected software was a right of passage back in the day.

And what about cassette to cassette tape recorders? The electronics industry itself was aiding and abetting!

 

[pbaldy]

In fact, in my entire life, I've never even met someone who pays for it!

Now you have, or my employer at least. I'm currently connected to my work computer via licensed Teamviewer. We've switched to another vendor but have a perpetual license to TV (bought before they went to the subscription model).

 

[NauticalGent]

We've switched to another vendor but have a perpetual license to TV (bought before they went to the subscription model).

Funny, I just read about it this morning: https://www.devhut.net/teamviewer-never-again/

 

[pbaldy]

True, but with a licensed perpetual version you can upgrade for free to the latest subscription version and it will be good for several years. We were licensed for v10, kept using it through all the version updates, and when the event Daniel points out happened I updated to 15 without cost. If memory serves it's good through 2025. I'll ping Daniel to make sure he knows that.

 

[NauticalGent]

He does come across as a little salty, doesn't he...?

 

[pbaldy]

LOL! Yeah, he was definitely miffed. I pinged him.

 

[Isaac]

How many of us attempted ripping a protected audio CD or game CD? Hacking security-protected software was a right of passage back in the day.

Oh - that reminds me. I may have conveniently forgotten one detail in my earlier pontificating. I was pretty bad about music tracks, back in the day before Pandora gave me every song on earth at one click. Any songs my band wanted to practice, it was just Limewire ...

Again, cost benefit analysis. In that era I was poor and streaming was something a stream or river did.
Now that $10/mo gives me every piece of music on earth on demand, ripping makes no sense any more.
Plus they came up with better technologies on digital rights

 

[Isaac]

Now you have, or my employer at least. I'm currently connected to my work computer via licensed Teamviewer. We've switched to another vendor but have a perpetual license to TV (bought before they went to the subscription model).

Nice to meet you, Paul..LOL Now I won't be able to say that any more !

 

[Isaac]

"The Internet Archive, a 501(c)(3) non-profit, is building a digital library of Internet sites and other cultural artifacts in digital form. Like a paper library, we provide free access to researchers, historians, scholars, the print disabled, and the general public.
Our mission is to provide Universal Access to All Knowledge."

That sounds like the most creative mumbo-jumbo mixture of "we hope that by reading all this you assume we must be immune from licensing rules" ever.
"We are a .org-school-community-test-open-source-charitable-donating-public-benefit-history-archives and really old things group"

 

[moke123]

Coding Developer Seeks 'Legal Counsel' As Trump Social Media Appears To Violate License

A software project dedicated to community ownership and public accessibility slams into Donald Trump's "Truth Social" media efforts.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Sun_Force]

I really didn't intend to enter this conversation but I couldn't help it.

When it comes to software piracy the whole world blames Asia and above them all, China and Russia.
Well....Partly I can understand this. But I think I have something in their defense.
Most people forget about some facts:

China and Russia have and always have had the top count of using pirated software:

Software Piracy 2025 Stat Watch | Revenera Blog

2025 software piracy and license compliance statistics and Top 20 Software License Misuse and Piracy Hotspots (China, Russia, India, USA, and more).

www.revenera.com

But actually US has always been ranked the top country for economically damage caused by unlicensed software installation.
It means that the economical damage caused by US with 1/4th population of China is more than the damage caused by China.
Now imagine what if US had the same population as China.

The countries where people steal the most software

Software piracy is most rampant in China, but the value of pirated software in the US is higher.

www.businessinsider.com

Now the most interesting data.
Did you know that US has the top number of visits to pirate sites and China is 18th?

#	Country	Billion visits
1	United States	17.380
2	Russia	14.468
3	India	9.589
4	France	7.339
5	Turkey	7.335
6	Ukraine	6.126
7	Indonesia	6.075
8	United Kingdom	5.750
9	Germany	5.356

Piracy Is Back: Piracy Statistics for 2025 | DataProt

Is piracy dead? Not according to the latest piracy & copy right infrindgement statistics. Pirated video material gets over 230B views a year.

dataprot.net

Countries like Iran, Mexico seems to be top piracy countries, but they're not even ranked in second or third graphs.

Note: I couldn't find the data for the same years, but it gives the idea.
If you can find the three type of data for the same year, I'd be glad to see them.

Edit:
The following was very interesting for me (from the first link above)

Once again, Iran makes a strong showing in the Top 20, which may or may not come as a surprise since Iran is a sanctioned destination. Having access to data like this makes it easier for software suppliers to track and address these issues, especially in cases where licensed customers have installed software in countries like Iran in violation of their license or export control laws.

Speaking of sanctions, recent efforts targeting China have resulted in some manufacturing operations moving to countries like Vietnam and we are seeing infringement data that reflects these shifts. Interestingly, while there was a dip in infringements in the apparel industry in Vietnam early in the pandemic, it has bounced back up as those manufacturers have switched to making personal protective equipment (PPE) – all positive news for customers that have seen successful compliance programs in countries like Vietnam and South Korea.

Russia also continues its streak at the top of the list. While it can be a challenging region for license compliance, targeting entities away from the defense can yield successful outcomes for software suppliers.

Compliance efforts in India have struggled during the pandemic. In previous years software suppliers have seen solid compliance results in India, but the in-person nature of those programs and practices has been negatively impacted by Covid and the need to quarantine. Needless to say, we have also seen that license compliance programs face a tougher road in countries struggling with political issues.

 

[arnelgp]

I really didn't intend to enter this conversation but I couldn't help it.

i believe you, help though my unbelief.
well look at that US and UK, i wonder if one in those counts is in-disguise as clean here.

 

[Grumm]

So you mean that even though one single download is essentially meaningless, all of the downloads taken together do count, and thus, every single one (which is required to get many) counts? That makes sense. Now can we apply that to voting?

@NauticalGent
Some people just enjoy the mischevious adventure involved in "getting things for free". From the person who drives 5 miles to a different grocery store to use a coupon for a free bottle of water to the person actually downloading licensed stuff off of torrents.
However, I think for most normal people the "cost" calculation factors into it. For example, I can honestly say that I don't do anything like that. But is it attributable to my good morals and character? Probably not very much. I can get an entire desktop version of Office 2007 for $25, so why in the world would I go to the trouble and risk of stealing it? Would my spotless record still exist if the only thing that worked for anything was office 365 and I always needed to pay full price? I'm not sure, I've "never been tested".

Here's another interesting question, a twist on NG's original question.
How many people (granted, most people wouldn't admit it anyway, so I guess this is for our rhetorical pleasure!) - how many people are always honest when it comes to the attestation that you are using something for "test" or "personal" or "charitable" or "community" reasons???

All I can tell you is what I've seen. If I had a dollar for every team of developers who otherwise seem to be very "good people"--But, they all use Teamviewer's "Free" edition, I think I'd be rich..........

In fact, in my entire life, I've never even met someone who pays for it! If that tells the self righteous ones anything... lol

But isn't paying $25 also bad like yes, it is cheap for you, but that money will go into shady businesses.
Most of these keys are stolen or keys not meant to be sold on it's own.
The money you pay will never reach the makers. So is it better ?
For us as user, it is a great deal and it works. But for me that is as ETHICAL as just downloading it on a torrent.

 

[Isaac]

I really didn't intend to enter this conversation but I couldn't help it.

When it comes to software piracy the whole world blames Asia and above them all, China and Russia.
Well....Partly I can understand this. But I think I have something in their defense.
Most people forget about some facts:

China and Russia have and always have had the top count of using pirated software:

View attachment 95560

Software Piracy 2025 Stat Watch | Revenera Blog

2025 software piracy and license compliance statistics and Top 20 Software License Misuse and Piracy Hotspots (China, Russia, India, USA, and more).

www.revenera.com

But actually US has always been ranked the top country for economically damage caused by unlicensed software installation.
It means that the economical damage caused by US with 1/4th population of China is more than the damage caused by China.
Now imagine what if US had the same population as China.

View attachment 95561

The countries where people steal the most software

Software piracy is most rampant in China, but the value of pirated software in the US is higher.

www.businessinsider.com

Now the most interesting data.
Did you know that US has the top number of visits to pirate sites and China is 18th?

#	Country	Billion visits
1	United States	17.380
2	Russia	14.468
3	India	9.589
4	France	7.339
5	Turkey	7.335
6	Ukraine	6.126
7	Indonesia	6.075
8	United Kingdom	5.750
9	Germany	5.356

Piracy Is Back: Piracy Statistics for 2025 | DataProt

Is piracy dead? Not according to the latest piracy & copy right infrindgement statistics. Pirated video material gets over 230B views a year.

dataprot.net

Countries like Iran, Mexico seems to be top piracy countries, but they're not even ranked in second or third graphs.

Note: I couldn't find the data for the same years, but it gives the idea.
If you can find the three type of data for the same year, I'd be glad to see them.

Edit:
The following was very interesting for me (from the first link above)

Do you kind of wonder, though, what exactly is the value/quality of "statistics" meant to capture the non-existent? It's always hard to prove omissions.

How exactly DO they capture supposed actual numbers of pirated copies of things? Isn't it by nature something you could never know?

A lot of people on AWF post charts, graphs and ranked query results, but sometimes I try to step back and see the whole forest.
Some data is just questionable. I could start a website tomorrow and place a little picture that showed Madagascar as the #1 ranked place to live in the world.

I'm not defending the US at all, I'm just kind of skeptical of numbers that mean we have no idea what.

 

[Isaac]

But isn't paying $25 also bad like yes, it is cheap for you, but that money will go into shady businesses.
Most of these keys are stolen or keys not meant to be sold on it's own.

Really? What makes you say that? This website I've been using it for years.

Software Repair World - Leading Market Place for Software

Microsoft Windows 10 Recovery USB, Windows 11 Recovery USB, Microsoft Office 2021 Lifetime, Microsoft Windows 10 License, Microsoft Windows 11 Software Repair World

www.softwarerepairworld.com

The fact that you can get older versions of Office (but which work perfectly well) online through resellers is a long and widespread thing.
I don't think there's anything unethical, illegal, questionable or anything like that, about it (?)

Here's another one. https://www.thepcconnectstorellc.co...aP34IDpYUaqJPsERn71H1y2_qleu1mUxoC6JwQAvD_BwE
They're everywhere.
You're saying they're all pirates?
Please explain.

 

[Sun_Force]

Do you kind of wonder, though, what exactly is the value/quality of "statistics" meant to capture the non-existent? It's always hard to prove omissions.

How exactly DO they capture supposed actual numbers of pirated copies of things? Isn't it by nature something you could never know?

@Isaac
I really don't know. but I will do a research on this. In the meantime be honest with the following questions:

1- Do you accept that for years everybody says China & Russia have been the top Piracy countries?
2- Do you personally believe that ?
IF yes :
3- Why the numbers were not questionable for you? Di you ever asked yourself "Isn't it by nature something you could never know?" .

I've seen so many TV programs discussing piracy in Asia and mostly in China, but I have not even seen once somebody ask how do the figures have been captured.
You know why? I think because human by nature feels some kind of pleasure attacking others.
It's OK as far as it's the neighbor. If it's me, check the validity of the data first.

I could start a website tomorrow and place a little picture that showed Madagascar as the #1 ranked place to live in the world.

The graph I posted were from Statista. You didn't even bother to check it out. For you knowledge, Statista is a PAID web site that works with data and most of famous universities' students world wide use their data as the base of their researches. A simple data goes over several hundred dollars. Not that I say it's %100 safe to believe what they offer, but it's always interesting for me when Asia, China, Russia, Iran or these kind of countries are under question, nobody doubts the data. But as soon as somebody offer something against US, UK, Fr or others the source is questionable.

This one is $39

Global visits to music piracy sites 2021| Statista

In the third quarter of 2020 music piracy sites worldwide displayed around 3.24 billion visits, whilst in the corresponding quarter of 2021 the visits' number rose to approximately 3.89 billion.

www.statista.com

I'm not defending the US at all, I'm just kind of skeptical of numbers that mean we have no idea what.

You may not.
But to be honest, to me it seems that you are.

 

[Grumm]

Really? What makes you say that? This website I've been using it for years.

Software Repair World - Leading Market Place for Software

Microsoft Windows 10 Recovery USB, Windows 11 Recovery USB, Microsoft Office 2021 Lifetime, Microsoft Windows 10 License, Microsoft Windows 11 Software Repair World

www.softwarerepairworld.com

The fact that you can get older versions of Office (but which work perfectly well) online through resellers is a long and widespread thing.
I don't think there's anything unethical, illegal, questionable or anything like that, about it (?)

Here's another one. https://www.thepcconnectstorellc.co...aP34IDpYUaqJPsERn71H1y2_qleu1mUxoC6JwQAvD_BwE
They're everywhere.
You're saying they're all pirates?
Please explain.

I cannot speak for american websites, but here in Europe, we have a lot of websites who sells product keys.
Most of those keys are cheap. Like windows 11 for 1-2 €
They do work, but are mostly volume licence keys that aren't meant to be sold individually or from laptops.. Most of the time these keys comes from Russia.

I am not telling that all websites are like that. A lot are probably legit resellers. But I cannot imagine they can buy keys for even less than that.

 

[Saphirah]

I cannot speak for american websites, but here in Europe, we have a lot of websites who sells product keys.
Most of those keys are cheap. Like windows 11 for 1-2 €
They do work, but are mostly volume licence keys that aren't meant to be sold individually or from laptops.. Most of the time these keys comes from Russia.

I am not telling that all websites are like that. A lot are probably legit resellers. But I cannot imagine they can buy keys for even less than that.

I think you made the jump too quickly here. You are talking about pages that sell product keys, be it games or software, for a fraction of the market price. The others are talking about buying a regular Office 2007 Version, which is available today for 25€ without shady businesses.

A lot of these pages use stolen credit cards to buy the keys and then resell them on a lower price. This is a form of money laundering, because you are not stealing the money from the credit card directly, but the money is moved by a third party reseller.

This does mean the developers get the full price for their software or games.
What is actually the problem is, when the stolen credit card is reported or locked.

Let's take steam for an example, an online platform to buy computer games.
On Steam, anyone can sell their games, for that steam will take a 15% revenue.
Let's say a game costs 60$. That means steam will take 9$ revenue, the developer will make 51$.
Now someone buys 10 copies of a game using a stolen credit card. Steam will receive the money, take it's 90$ revenue and the dev will receive 510$.
When the credit card gets reported as stolen and locked before the billing cycle, the bank is unable to withdraw the money from the customer with the stolen credit card.
They will bill Steam 600$, to get their money back. Steam on the other hand already had to perform the transaction, with all expenses included.
So they just forward the bill to the developer.

That means suddenly the developer has a bill of 600$, even though they only received 510$ before. So they need to pay 90$, even though 10 players are enjoying their game.
That also means it would actually be better for the developer if those players cracked the game. Because they would not need to pay for it.

And that's the problem with these "cheap key" websites.