Taxes - Inconvient Truths (1 Viewer)

dkinley

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My company falls into that 40% and I can assure you that I pay more than my fair share of taxes do to my husband's conservative position on deductions. I am certain that most if not all of the other members of this group are in a similar situation. All the company profit "passes through" to the owner or partners due to the legal structure of the company. Mine is a LLC (limited liability corporation) and I file as a partnership. At the end of the year, all the money that is left over, is distributed to the partners where it is taxed at their personal tax rate which is most likely higher than the corporate tax rate.

Apologies, Pat ... I should have clarified. I was referring to the reported 40% of Americans that don't pay a (personal) tax at all. Meaning that from deductions and credits, they fall in tax brackets until their tax responsibility is 0, thus they receive back what they paid in and, in some cases, receive more money from the government from credits above and beyond what they paid in.

-dK
 

redneckgeek

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WHo is talking about welfare? The discussion above was about literally EVERYTHING the government currently pays for out of taxes: roads, schools, water treatement plants, fire departments, etc etc etc. Banana is arguing that the government should provide absolutely nothing except police and military. Meaning that if I don't have income, I don't have food, or clean water, or even a road to drive on to find those things.

You asked about "public good" and people that have no income :confused:
I made the logical jump to welfare.

Many of the services you are talking about are covered by either:
1) Usage fees - I pay my township a sewer bill every month for our treatment plant.
2) Property taxes. These are imposed by local government.

The federal government need not be involved in these.
 

Steve R.

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First and foremost, what taxation can't do is create wealth. By definition, they squander wealth. Taxation can only shuffle the money around, and since we'll have to pay someone to shuffle it, we come out with a net deficit on the balance and thus are collectively poorer for it.

True, taxation does not create wealth. It is a societal "grease" to help our society function effectively.

On taxation shuffling wealth, we get into two aspects of taxation. I am only focusing on taxes that are used to provide real goods and services to society. The other tax is the one that shuffles wealth. I will agree (more or less) that any tax that is collected at the local level, then moves up to the national level, and is then redistributed down to the local level for motherhood programs (affordable housing) is a bad tax since there is a large bureaucratic overhead. (and in the case of affordable housing subsidies distorts the true value of housing.)

Thirdly, it would be a mistake to think that costs would increase if the roads (and any other various goods and services provided by government) were suddenly to go private
Theoretically you are correct. But private industry is geared to making a profit and would not build a road for altruistic reasons. A good example, might be our "Bridge to Nowhere". Private industry would probably never build such a bridge, but the government would, which gets into your statement how taxation can obfuscate the real price. Personally, I don't have a concern when government builds infrastructure for the public benefit that private industry finds uneconomic. I guess, I still have some left over 1970s socialist tendencies.

I think I mentioned somewhere else that if we were to shred every tax code and did away with IRS, leaving only tariffs (as authorized by Constitution) to be levied, we would be freeing up thousands, if not millions, of tax attroneys, tax preparers, accountants, financial advisors to seek more gainful employment (e.g. construction, plumbing, medical research, what have you) and thus make us collectively richer because we're no longer wasting our time, resources and money on following a fiat for which free market would have had no need for.
Absolutely correct. Steve Forbes has been advocating a flat tax for many years. While I don't agree with everything he says, it is clearly superior to what we now have. I hope that a flat tax can be implemented.
 

dkinley

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Theoretically you are correct. But private industry is geared to making a profit and would not build a road for altruistic reasons.

The best I witnessed was when I lived in California. It's no secret that the govt there (state/local) is always broke. For new highways/bridges, they partnered with private businesses where a private organization built the bridge/highways. The funding was partly on state/local bonds and private sources.

The contract was such that the privateer collected tolls on these faster routes. The proceeds then went to both parties to pay off debt and run operations. The fascinating bit, was after payoff, the tolls were mostly given to the privateer for operations and maintenance but a small portion was given to the govt for the right to operate.

In this sense, if the common serfs wanted to expedite their commute, they could elect to pay said toll and use that highway/bridge. So not only was the privateer profiting (and providing jobs) off the greed of the citizen wanting a faster route, but the govt also profitted twice from the gasoline tax (from driving on the road) and the kickback from the organization running it.

The govt there just saw a private org could do it more efficiently to maximize the benefits and the bottom line for all involved parties.

-dK
 

Rich

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The best I witnessed was when I lived in California. It's no secret that the govt there (state/local) is always broke. For new highways/bridges, they partnered with private businesses where a private organization built the bridge/highways. The funding was partly on state/local bonds and private sources.

-dK
Don't you guys watch the news over there, private companies are broke at the minute because the banks wont lend any money!
 

statsman

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Rich:
You must watch the ENTIRE newscast.
Private companies are not broke, far from it. But they are currently having a cash flow problem.

Example: Company A sends out its monthly invoices on the 15th of the month. Most are generally paid by the 30th. In the past, the Company would go to the bank and get a 15 day note using the Accounts Receivable as collateral. This would give them the cash to pay their bills and their payroll until the money rolled in on the 30th.
Since the banks won't lend them any money, they have to be a little more creative. They are selling bonds, debentures and letters of credit. The business continues, it's just more difficult.

By the way, most companies have revolving lines of credit with their banks (similar to an overdraft for you and me) which are under contract so they are doing all right. The company I retired from has had one in place for years. Beats going to the bank every month and filling out all those forms.
I know of another company that when they were flush (from the 30th to the 15th) they bought government treasury bonds. When the cash crunch came (from the 15th to the 30th) they sold them. Made a few extra dollars in interest.
 
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Banana

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True, taxation does not create wealth. It is a societal "grease" to help our society function effectively.

A case can be made for protection racket as necessary to keep the neighborhood all nice and tidy, but it doesn't make us any richer. We have to sacrifice certain goods & services when we are forced to pay taxes.

On taxation shuffling wealth, we get into two aspects of taxation. I am only focusing on taxes that are used to provide real goods and services to society.

Even so, that doesn't address the knowledge problem that I had cited earlier- No bureaucrat is able to have enough information to spend the money exactly where there is demand for it. And we have to pay for his cut of work and he get to keep his cut even he blundered seriously.


Theoretically you are correct. But private industry is geared to making a profit and would not build a road for altruistic reasons. A good example, might be our "Bridge to Nowhere". Private industry would probably never build such a bridge, but the government would, which gets into your statement how taxation can obfuscate the real price. Personally, I don't have a concern when government builds infrastructure for the public benefit that private industry finds uneconomic. I guess, I still have some left over 1970s socialist tendencies.

Though it sounds nice to say that we're spending on public benefits, the fact still remains that we're taking away from people's wallets and squandering it on an unprofitable activity such as building bridge to nowhere. Making it a public benefit does not make it any more economically feasible. And forcing people to pay in taxes mean they will have to give up or put off their wants. Instead of having wants satiated, they are poorer for having paid for a bridge they wouldn't use.

Absolutely correct. Steve Forbes has been advocating a flat tax for many years. While I don't agree with everything he says, it is clearly superior to what we now have. I hope that a flat tax can be implemented.

While I will concede that a flat tax or FairTax will be preferable to the current tax codes, it still doesn't address the fact that we're paying taxes on goods and services for which Federal Government did not have authority from Constitution (and if it's not specifically enumerated, it's not authorized- see Tenth Amendment) and thus are seeing much more waste and slower economic growth. I will also concede that no such restriction exist upon state governments and they are free to be socialistic as much as they like. However, I'd bet you that if one state tried a socialistic policy, it'd lose out to other states. This is partially why people who thinks government ought to provide for "basic human rights" has to insist that it be mandated by government all over the nation or it won't work... Aha, but why it won't work? Mandating it won't make the inherent flaws go away, as much as painting mud on cracks on the wall does nothing to rectify the deep foundation defect of the house.
 

Rich

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Rich:
You must watch the ENTIRE newscast.
Private companies are not broke, far from it. But they are currently having a cash flow problem.
I'm well aware of cash flow thank you running my own business. The fact is that well run companies build up a cash surplus during good times to see them through the bad times :rolleyes:
 

Rabbie

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Taxation doesn't create wealth but government spending can. Look how defence spending ended the depression of the thirties both in the US and in Europe. Not just defence spending but spending on roads etc.
 

Banana

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Taxation doesn't create wealth but government spending can. Look how defence spending ended the depression of the thirties both in the US and in Europe. Not just defence spending but spending on roads etc.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about Europe's part, but I can tell you about US:

Great Depression basically started in 1929 and it wasn't until 1939 or so before it ended. It was unusual in its length, especially when you consider that the crash of 1920-1921 was just as severe but was over so fast it was forgotten just as long. Going further back in history we can see similiar patterns- There were several recessions that were done in matters of months and where there were serious crash that lasted for years, usually were a result of government interference with market. (Crash of 1839 and 1879 are prime candidate of this as well as the Great Depression) During the Depression, Hoover and FDR implemented several social programs, creating work, among other various projects between 1929 and 1939, yet in despite of their spending, unemployment stayed high and investments continued to be squandered because people had wrong signals owning to the fact that government couldn't keep out their hand out of the market and thus obfuscate desperately needed corrections. If this is an interest to you, I would recommend Murray Rothbard's "America's Great Depression", which goes into much more details on how government intervention and spending actually contributed to the length of Great Depression.

As for the war, some has concluded that it was a fortunate savior from the depression, but to do so is to neglect that after the war there was a recession. Furthermore, there was a similar and severe depression after Civil War because in order to be able to afford war efforts, both governments of USA and CSA had to go off the gold standard and printed fiat money, which rapidly became worthless. They attempted to return to gold standard but it wasn't quite same. Even so the process was painful because we had to correct for rampant inflation bought on by printing press.

Furthermore, it is mistake to think that such spending stimulate economy. Allow me to use an analogy that I've read from various authors:

Suppose a vandal broke a glass at Baker's store. The crowd gathers and contemplate about this. They came to view it as a blessing in disguise because that would pay the glazier to make the glass. The glazier would then spend his money on whatever goods he needed and it would ripple outward. Thus in a sense, the vandal had performed a public good.

But! That doesn't consider the whole picture... specifically, who is left out of the picture. Suppose that day, Baker was planning on making trip to tailor to buy a nice new suit. But now the window is broken, he has to give this up and be content buying a replacement for the window.

Instead of having a baker who has a window and nice new suit, we only have a baker who has a window... Therefore we all are poorer for it.

This is why war cannot create wealth. Yes, it may create demand for guns, but it will come at expense of butter and we will be poorer for it. Furthermore, when we put them to use, we are destroying our potential trading partners, and consequentially, the comparative advantage, and thus further making us poorer for it.

To go a step further, this is why defense spending will do nothing for our economy, except to squander money that could be better spent in other goods and service far more useful to us collectively. Finally, same will apply to building a bridge that private industries refuse to build for the exact same reason. Instead of having a nice new recreation center in the town, we are stuck with bridge to nowhere that nobody will use but has to pay for.

I haven't even addressed how creating money doesn't create wealth. This is a whole another topic about how printing press cannot help create wealth but in fact only effect inflation, reducing the demand for money. What happened in Zimbabwe is no different from what happened in Germany post World War I. I understand that people back then were paid twice a day, to which the workers would rush to their housewives with wheelbarrows, so they can rush to market and buy just anything *but* the worthless marks that was getting even more worthless every hour!

To further illustrate the problem- Suppose a village of 100 people. Every person had $10 and earns $10 doing his trade which he then consume $10 worth of food and goods. Now, everyone complained that it would be nice to have more money. Suppose that their wish were magically answered and now they had $20 instead of usual $10. Naturally, they would rush to market to buy food and goods. But there isn't enough food and goods to go around... and when supply is low and demand raises... price raises. Thus what used to be worth $10 is now $20. Thus no net benefit.

Further suppose that instead of everyone getting extra $10 magically, suppose that only one person got $100 extra magically. He can go to market and spend more on goods. The sellers notice that their business is booming, and thus decide they need to spend more on capital. That in turn triggers a booms in say, construction to expand the store's shelves. Once the money has passed through everybody's hands, it become apparent that nobody had the money to buy more goods; they just had more money. This not only trigger inflation but also show that their investment in bigger store was mistaken because there isn't anyone else other than the first villager who had the extra money to buy more goods. The first villager walked off with a great bargain, having bought the goods at old prices and is thus richer at expense of everybody else. This illustrates how central banking essentially distort the economy. And in light of recent bailout, their answer has been... print more money! In a sense, inflation is a tax that doesn't required to be passed to be levied. No wonder why our real wages has been falling steadily and our savings dwindling, while people understand implicitly that it is better to spend now than to save and lose it.

This is how Austrian economists describe the boom-bust cycle, in fact. Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek wrote books about the prices, production and business cycles, and they did so *prior* to Great Depression, even as Keynes's theory was the vogue. Turns out that Keynesian economic was failure and they were right. But even today, most economists hold some certain Keynesian theories, even if they are not out and out Keynesian themselves.

So in conclusion, neither taxation nor spending will create wealth. Only real saving created from under-consumption which is then invested into capital that actually increase productivity by further dividing the labor and specialization, can wealth be created.
 

Alisa

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Banana, your ideas don't seem to have a whole lot of empirical basis to support them - Of the countries that exist today or have existed in the past (actual real countries, not dream worlds), which one(s) do you think are or were the most economically successful? And what system or philosophy did they use?
 

Alc

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Suppose a vandal broke a glass at Baker's store. The crowd gathers and contemplate about this. They came to view it as a blessing in disguise because that would pay the glazier to make the glass. The glazier would then spend his money on whatever goods he needed and it would ripple outward. Thus in a sense, the vandal had performed a public good.

But! That doesn't consider the whole picture... specifically, who is left out of the picture. Suppose that day, Baker was planning on making trip to tailor to buy a nice new suit. But now the window is broken, he has to give this up and be content buying a replacement for the window.

Instead of having a baker who has a window and nice new suit, we only have a baker who has a window... Therefore we all are poorer for it.
The last part of that didn't appear to make any sense.:confused:

If the baker was going to spend money on a suit but instead spends it on a window, exactly the same money is released into the community. Unless the assumption is that glaziers (or glass vendors if the baker does the job himself) release less cash into the community than tailors do.

The only negative financial effect the vandalism has is if the baker still buys a suit while also replacing the window. At that point, surely he's the only one worse off as both the glazier and tailor now receive money from him and pass it on to the community?
 

Banana

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Banana, your ideas don't seem to have a whole lot of empirical basis to support them

This is akin to saying that 2+2=4 isn't empirical until we actually have two pennies and two pennies to make four pennies although. I've provided some facts to help with the reasoning, and if you want more, I've already cited authors you can check for more detailed reasoning instead of my summary. It's not just my ideas, you know... It's a school of thought that I happen to ascribe to.

Of the countries that exist today or have existed in the past (actual real countries, not dream worlds), which one(s) do you think are or were the most economically successful? And what system or philosophy did they use?

In early 19th century, several Western countries had free market to large extent, though the history has been tainted with examples of collusion between private companies and government (railroad monopoly is a prime example). Furthermore, we can see that the more control imposed on economy, the poorer the country is- consider the nationalization of agriculture in USSR which led to starvation. Nowadays, practically all countries adopt a mixed economy so there are no truly free market just as there are no truly command economy. However, if we look at various sectors of market where there is relatively less regulation, we usually see prosperity. A case in point would be LASIK surgery and cosmetic surgery in contrast to the rest of healthcare. The former became cheaper, easier to use, and was more readily available while quality improved while the latter saw rising costs for less service.
 

Alisa

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This is akin to saying that 2+2=4 isn't empirical until we actually have two pennies and two pennies to make four pennies although. I've provided some facts to help with the reasoning, and if you want more, I've already cited authors you can check for more detailed reasoning instead of my summary. It's not just my ideas, you know... It's a school of thought that I happen to ascribe to.



In early 19th century, several Western countries had free market to large extent, though the history has been tainted with examples of collusion between private companies and government (railroad monopoly is a prime example). Furthermore, we can see that the more control imposed on economy, the poorer the country is- consider the nationalization of agriculture in USSR which led to starvation. Nowadays, practically all countries adopt a mixed economy so there are no truly free market just as there are no truly command economy. However, if we look at various sectors of market where there is relatively less regulation, we usually see prosperity. A case in point would be LASIK surgery and cosmetic surgery in contrast to the rest of healthcare. The former became cheaper, easier to use, and was more readily available while quality improved while the latter saw rising costs for less service.


Banana, it is obviously not as simple as 2+2=4, because otherwise every country would be living by those ideas. I understand that it is a school of thought - there are lots of theoretical ideas about economies and how they work. But my point was, if we leave the "theory" of it alone for a moment, which actual economy do you think is the most successful? Not which one comes closest to your theory, just which country, over all, is or was the most economically successful?
 

Banana

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If the baker was going to spend money on a suit but instead spends it on a window, exactly the same money is released into the community. Unless the assumption is that glaziers (or glass vendors if the baker does the job himself) release less cash into the community than tailors do.

Yes, but that wasn't the point; whether the money has been released or not, but rather was the baker better off? With broken window, he's out the money just to replace the window, so he's worse off than he was yesterday when he had the window and the money.

The only negative financial effect the vandalism has is if the baker still buys a suit while also replacing the window. At that point, surely he's the only one worse off as both the glazier and tailor now receive money from him and pass it on to the community?

You're assuming that baker had the money to buy a new windows *and* new suit, which wasn't the case here. But let's say he could. It still meant that he had to give up other use of his money- perhaps he was going to buy a hat instead but is now worse off because he just has a windows, a suit and no money, rather than a window, a hat and a suit.

And that made me realized one more point I didn't address in that analogy. We also are poorer because glazier found employment in making glass to replace the broken panes when he could had made brand new panes to sell to people with new building. Or perhaps if there's no demand for panes as there are no broken windows, glazier would have had spent his time farming, and thus producing a bushel of carrots, so instead of making a window to replace the one that was broken by vandal, we could been richer by having an extra bushel of carrots or an extra pane for a new house.

The point here is that it's easy to think that the vandalism may seem to simulate the economy but in reality what it meant was that we had to devote our time and resources to get back to where we were in square one (and thus lose our time and resource in process), which ultimately make us poorer.
 
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It is a very interesting question. I'm not sure if the answer has ever been quantified.

One important thing has less to do with financial success and more to do with better lifestyle.

Would you rather live in Communist Soviet Union in the late 20th century or in Rome in the 2nd century? It could be argued that Rome had a better economy (more innovation, more economic freedom, etc.) but it MIGHT also be argued that the lifestyle comparatively sucked.

Who's to say?

Spread the wealth! Obama wants my money to give to you...I think I should comply (or be beat up by his thugs in the press).
 

Alc

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Yes, but that wasn't the point; whether the money has been released or not, but rather was the baker better off?
As I already said, yes, the baker is worse off.
What doesn't hold up is the 'we're all worse off' part.
You're assuming that baker had the money to buy a new windows *and* new suit, which wasn't the case here.
I wasn't assuming anything. Hence the use of the word 'if'.
And that made me realized one more point I didn't address in that analogy. We also are poorer because glazier found employment in making glass to replace the broken panes when he could had made brand new panes to sell to people with new building. Or perhaps if there's no demand for panes as there are no broken windows, glazier would have had spent his time farming, and thus producing a bushel of carrots, so instead of making a window to replace the one that was broken by vandal, we could been richer by having an extra bushel of carrots or an extra pane for a new house.
Now who's making assumptions?
The glazier is also trained as a farmer, is he? Any other trades he can fall back on during lean glazing periods?
The point here is that it's easy to think that the vandalism may seem to simulate the economy but in reality what it meant was that we had to devote our time and resources to get back to where we were in square one (and thus lose our time and resource in process), which ultimately make us poorer.
I wasn't seriously suggesting that vandalism was a means of strengthening the economy, just commenting on a few of the 'gaps' in an overly simplistic example. The main danger of these types of hypothetical examples always seem to be the chasm between what they describe and the real world. They apply in certain ways but it doesn't take much effort to find out where they don't. I don't necessarily disagree with the point you were making, I just felt that the eample given weakened it a bit.:)
 

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