Unexplainable Questions

[Libre]

Based on the thousands of articles out there on guitar tuning, of which I just read through a dozen or so, it seems that it can have a number of causes ranging from low quality strings, the strings being too small for the drop tuning, the neck on electric guitars seems to be a constant source of trouble, as does the bridge. It seems to be a complicated issue that non-guitarists won't be answering any time soon.

Froth - we can eliminate low quality strings, or problems with the guitar's necks or bridges. Not only do I use very high quality strings (I play professionally), but and I've seen it over and over on many different instruments through the years. I've observed it very carefully and consistently and from empirical evidence, I'm convinced that the effect is somehow intrinsic to the string itself, and separate from the guitar's construction. I'd have to put the string on a tension gauge without a guitar and simulate the conditions I spoke of, while measuring the tension to prove it, and I haven't done that - but it continues to be a mystery to me.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Yep, like I said, it's something the non-guitarists here aren't going to be solving any time soon.

By the way, the 'Dear Mr. Guitar Man' letter is awesome.

 

[Libre]

Froth - thank you very much.
I know I was a sort of an a-hole in that physics thread - you could have been much tougher on me.
(Sure - physics is nonsense. Isn't that what they told Galileo? Sometimes I just write whatever idiocy happens to be on my mind at the moment - and often, there is a lot of it there.)

 

[Frothingslosh]

Perhaps, but it's far from the first time I've had that kind of conversation. My own father was firmly of the belief that pretty much all scientific advancement past the 1700's or so has done little but harm humanity.

And what they told Galileo wasn't that physics is nonsense, but rather that the idea that anything could orbit anything other than the Earth, indicating that Earth might not be the focus of all Creation, was a direct contradiction of the Bible, and thus heresy. The discovery of the Galilean moons shot that idea right out of the water.

 

[Galaxiom]

Yep, like I said, it's something the non-guitarists here aren't going to be solving any time soon.

Don't bet on it. The problem needs a physicist not a guitarist.

It happens due to the nature of the polymer chains in the string. When strain on a polymer is changed suddenly, the immediate effect is the cross links at the end of the molecular chains are affected more than those in the middle.

Thus in the case of drop tuning the ends of the chains relax while the bonds in the middle retain the original tension. This tension is then redistributed along the molecular chain over time.

Due to the geometry of the molecule, the shortening of the relaxed bonds as they retension is greater than the cumulative lengthening of those contributing their stored tension.

The overall result is the string tensions as the strain in the bonds along the chains return to an even distribution.

 

[Bladerunner]

Next unexplainable question:

What is more likely to derail a thread: Climate Change, Religion, Politics, or Gaming?

Guess I am just a simple fellow but that don't leave much to talk about??????

 

[ConnorGiles]

Don't bet on it. The problem needs a physicist not a guitarist.

It happens due to the nature of the polymer chains in the string. When strain on a polymer is changed suddenly, the immediate effect is the cross links at the end of the molecular chains are affected more than those in the middle.

Thus in the case of drop tuning the ends of the chains relax while the bonds in the middle retain the original tension. This tension is then redistributed along the molecular chain over time.

Due to the geometry of the molecule, the shortening of the relaxed bonds as they retension is greater than the cumulative lengthening of those contributing their stored tension.

The overall result is the string tensions as the strain in the bonds along the chains return to an even distribution.

I must say, Not one second did I look at this and say "Oh yeah that explains it" . Too Intelligent for my young brain to handle! haha

Although I saw a few phrases I understood

 

[ConnorGiles]

Guess I am just a simple fellow but that don't leave much to talk about??????

Far from it my friend, I'm sure your story is just as good as the next guys

 

[Libre]

Don't bet on it. The problem needs a physicist not a guitarist.

It happens due to the nature of the polymer chains in the string. When strain on a polymer is changed suddenly, the immediate effect is the cross links at the end of the molecular chains are affected more than those in the middle.

Thus in the case of drop tuning the ends of the chains relax while the bonds in the middle retain the original tension. This tension is then redistributed along the molecular chain over time.

Due to the geometry of the molecule, the shortening of the relaxed bonds as they retension is greater than the cumulative lengthening of those contributing their stored tension.

The overall result is the string tensions as the strain in the bonds along the chains return to an even distribution.

Galaxion-
I was hoping you would take up this question. Your explanation has plausibility. I do understand what you're saying and I want to think on it awhile. Another thing I failed to mention - an explanation another engineer gave me - is that when you release the tension for drop tuning, heat is generated. The heat can go back into the string and cause it to sharpen (slightly) again. It is true that heat is generated when you drop a string - I could just about feel it with my finger. It's also true that heat will cause the pitch of a string to increase - when a guitar warms up - say, because the suns rays strike it - it will go sharp.
It could be a combination of these two things - the polymer bonds and the heat that's released.
I can test the polymer bond idea with a steel string guitar and see if the effect it present. Steel strings are simply metal wires - unlike the monofilament nylon strings. The polymer bond explanation should NOT affect steel strings. (The bass strings of both nylon and steel string guitars are wound with metal wire - but the treble strings are not).
I'll check it out - I have a steel string as well as a solid body electric guitar. But I think you may be on to something there, Galaxion!

 

[ConnorGiles]

Unexplainable Question : Can you tell me why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

 

[Libre]

I have one (an unexplainable question).
I had a terrace vegetable garden for a few summers.
I put some pots out on my terrace, filled them with potting soil, and planted tomatoes, lettuce, peppers, and a few other veggies - a small garden. I may have tossed a handful of "plant food" in with the potting soil - that's it. That, plus a lot of water.
Now you take this concoction of seeds, soil, and water - give it sunlight - and some time - and stand back. WAY back.
The pots exploded with veggies.
I mean some HUGE plants grew - especially the tomatoes.
I mean, my terrace became a veritable jungle. I thought I was in Vietnam instead of Queens NYC. Looked at the soil in the pots - and the level may have dropped a bit - seemed like compaction, mainly.
So my question - I planted tiny seeds (or seedlings) - where did all the vegetation and fruit actually come from? Matter can't be created (one of the laws of physics). From the soil? The level hardly dropped? From sunlight? That's not matter. From water? Ok, but how can a plant turn water into a tomato? Truly amazing - miraculous even.
So somebody explain that.

 

[Bladerunner]

I have one (an unexplainable question).
I had a terrace vegetable garden for a few summers.
I put some pots out on my terrace, filled them with potting soil, and planted tomatoes, lettuce, peppers, and a few other veggies - a small garden. I may have tossed a handful of "plant food" in with the potting soil - that's it. That, plus a lot of water.
Now you take this concoction of seeds, soil, and water - give it sunlight - and some time - and stand back. WAY back.
The pots exploded with veggies.
I mean some HUGE plants grew - especially the tomatoes.
I mean, my terrace became a veritable jungle. I thought I was in Vietnam instead of Queens NYC. Looked at the soil in the pots - and the level may have dropped a bit - seemed like compaction, mainly.
So my question - I planted tiny seeds (or seedlings) - where did all the vegetation and fruit actually come from? Matter can't be created (one of the laws of physics). From the soil? The level hardly dropped? From sunlight? That's not matter. From water? Ok, but how can a plant turn water into a tomato? Truly amazing - miraculous even.
So somebody explain that.

From what I can remember about zoology, matter is not created. Like the human body with a child, cells are split continuously. Even in growth of the child, cells continue splitting (regenerating) at a fantastic pace. In a plant like the human body, all cells are specialized to do a particular task. You have cells that convert the sunlight to chloroplast, cells that are necessary for strength (tomatos require a lot of vine strength), cells to create a flowers and/or fruit in order for natures carriers (bees, bugs, etc.) to carry their seeds and pollen (depends on the plant) to other plants or areas where new growth is created. The pollen is need to germinate seeds of another like type plant thereby causing seeds to generate from specialized cells. All of this happens through specialized cell regeneration (splitting and re-splitting). Water is simply a conduit for Plant food and other essentials to be carried throughout the plant to each cell. While a tomato is a considered a fruit, it cells are plant cells.

Blade

 

[Galaxiom]

Water is simply a conduit for Plant food and other essentials to be carried throughout the plant to each cell.

No. The plant is mostly made from the water. Water combines with carbon dioxide from the atmosphere using the energy from sunlight to make carbohydrates while releasing the excess oxygen.

The major nutrients in the soil contribute to the ingredients of proteins which are also largely made up of water and carbon.

 

[Libre]

Bladerunner wrote:

Like the human body with a child, cells are split continuously. Even in growth of the child, cells continue splitting (regenerating) at a fantastic pace.

Blade - as you said, matter can't be created. If a cell splits, the two new cells (plus any waste products) must have exactly the same mass as the original cell.
Humans are different from plants (most of us, anyway). We can walk around, find food, and eat it. If we don't, we starve. We can't use sunlight for energy the way plants do. The food we eat (protein and other nutrients) is converted into more of US. With plants, they don't feed themselves the same way (except maybe for carnivorous plants like Venus Fly Traps, etc). They have to make new cells and replacement cells from the material available to them where they grow.

I think Galaxion's reply must be right. The plants must make their cells from the atmosphere. Wow. Amazing. Who knew plants were that smart?

And think about this: humans breathe the waste gas of plants (oxygen) and plants breathe the waste gas of humans (carbon dioxide). Mind blowing really. And if not for the water, the plant stems would not have the necessary turgidity to stand up - it's really the water that supports them. All this is freakishly weird.

Okay - explained, but no less mind blowing.

 

[Bladerunner]

No. The plant is mostly made from the water. Water combines with carbon dioxide from the atmosphere using the energy from sunlight to make carbohydrates while releasing the excess oxygen.

The major nutrients in the soil contribute to the ingredients of proteins which are also largely made up of water and carbon.

Hi Galaxiom; I was thinking along another line of thought but yes you are right, the plants like the human body have high water content and while different conversions happens the cells react close to the same way as they do in the human body. Water is still a conduit for those nutrients into the plant!

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Bladerunner wrote:
Blade - as you said, matter can't be created. If a cell splits, the two new cells (plus any waste products) must have exactly the same mass as the original cell.
Humans are different from plants (most of us, anyway). We can walk around, find food, and eat it. If we don't, we starve. We can't use sunlight for energy the way plants do. The food we eat (protein and other nutrients) is converted into more of US. With plants, they don't feed themselves the same way (except maybe for carnivorous plants like Venus Fly Traps, etc). They have to make new cells and replacement cells from the material available to them where they grow.

I think Galaxion's reply must be right. The plants must make their cells from the atmosphere. Wow. Amazing. Who knew plants were that smart?

And think about this: humans breathe the waste gas of plants (oxygen) and plants breathe the waste gas of humans (carbon dioxide). Mind blowing really. And if not for the water, the plant stems would not have the necessary turgidity to stand up - it's really the water that supports them. All this is freakishly weird.

Okay - explained, but no less mind blowing.

Again from what I rem. and no, I am not looking it up, matter cannot be destroyed nor can it be created (maybe exception in a very set of special circumstances). As in a fire, the fuel is not destroyed but transformed to a different form of matter,
(smoke, heat (energy)and carbon, etc.).

As far as water holding up the plant, those cells that hold the water that hold the plant up are also very specialized. p.s. did you know that a simple block of dried wood can break a large rock by simply adding water to the wood piece. the cells take up the water and swell thus creating enough force to split granite stone.

p.s. cells of plants do divide, they are not just made from the atmosphere.

Blade.

 

[Libre]

Blade - nobody is saying that cells don't divide. Of course they do. But an organism - plant or animal - can't grow simply by cell division. It's like cutting a deck of cards. One big deck becomes 2 smaller decks with a total of 52 cards, equalling the first deck - and with the same mass. In order to actually GROW or add mass, the material must be added from outside the system - namely the environment.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Actually, I just looked it up a bit. A study testing water vs mass gained was inconclusive, but it referred back to Jospeh Priestly's study on the matter back in the late 1600's, which was confirmed by Martin Kamen in 1940 via carbon-14 tracing.

Basically, it largely comes from the air and water. During photosynthesis, plants convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. They "breathe" out the oxygen but keep the carbon, which is then combined with water and the nutrients in the soil to make the plant grow.

http://www.csun.edu/scied/2-longitudinal/plant_mass/

If you google "where does the mass in growing plants come from" you'll get a TON of articles on the subject.

So, unsurprisingly, pretty much what Galaxiom said.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Also, matter cannot be destroyed, but it CAN be converted to energy. That's why the results of exothermic reactions always have slightly less mass than their components. (Note that the mass of the helium created by hydrogen fusion never QUITE equals the mass of the hydrogen atoms that were used. That difference was converted to energy at the ratio E=mc^2.)

Overall, though, it was incredibly difficult to convert matter to energy with any efficiency, as even stellar fusion is way, way, way less than 1% efficient, IIRC.

 

[Bladerunner]

Blade - nobody is saying that cells don't divide. Of course they do. But an organism - plant or animal - can't grow simply by cell division. It's like cutting a deck of cards. One big deck becomes 2 smaller decks with a total of 52 cards, equalling the first deck - and with the same mass. In order to actually GROW or add mass, the material must be added from outside the system - namely the environment.

We are in the same book just different pages, but I agree with you the environment has everything to do with the mass that is acquired.

Blade