Why The Gun Is Civilization (1 Viewer)

KenHigg

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Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or forcing me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat, or employment, of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
 
R

Rich

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'Course the other option is to move to a civilised country, like the UK:cool:
 

KenHigg

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Is that all you have :(

I bet you didn't even read all the way through it...

:)
ken
 
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Rich

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Well in a civilised country like here, one doesn't need any form of protection, because everbody is polite and civil to each other :cool:
Now of course that's not an option in the US where everbody wants a bigger arsenal than the guy next door
 

KenHigg

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Well you don't want an exactly level playing field, you need a slight advantage - ;)
 

boblarson

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Well in a civilised country like here, one doesn't need any form of protection, because everbody is polite and civil to each other :cool:
Now of course that's not an option in the US where everbody wants a bigger arsenal than the guy next door

And of course the U.K. NEVER has any murders or crime for that matter. So one never has to be afraid there. Such a place. I'll bet it is the lost UTOPIA that people have been searching for.

Wow, no crime, no killings, no riots, no looting, no kidnappings, no ra**, etc. How do you guys do it?
 

KenHigg

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It's not total bliss. The rowdies have conkers - so tragic...
 

Uncle Gizmo

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Very nice way of looking at the problem Ken, I always thought we were better off in the UK without guns, however as more and more guns are being used in our society by the "wrong sort of people" your argument has some merit.

Being quite a strong lad, I have never felt threatened anywhere, however now I am getting older..... I have been in one or two places where I felt uncomfortable, And definitely, if I had access to a gun legally, I think I would now give it serious consideration, especially after reading what you have written.
 

KenHigg

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Even though I plagiarized it I think it does have some merit as well... Thinking back over a couple times when I was in a 'tight' spot it probably was good that I didn't have a handgun or I may be posting form an 8 by 10 - :)
 
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Rich

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The increase in gun culture here is a direct result of Hollywood, however it is just a passing phase.
 

KenHigg

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UK version

Why The conker Is Civilization

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or forcing me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal conker, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a conker, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat, or employment, of force. The conker is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The conker removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the conker as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all conkers were removed from society, because a conker makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the conker makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without conkers involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the conker makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The conker is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a conker, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The conker at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a conker is a civilized act
 

GaryPanic

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Very nice way of looking at the problem Ken, I always thought we were better off in the UK without guns, however as more and more guns are being used in our society by the "wrong sort of people" your argument has some merit.

Being quite a strong lad, I have never felt threatened anywhere, however now I am getting older..... I have been in one or two places where I felt uncomfortable, And definitely, if I had access to a gun legally, I think I would now give it serious consideration, especially after reading what you have written.

Its cos you been drinking in the Clock tower .. thats a rough pub...lol
 

GaryPanic

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Kenn - I don't think your argument has total merit - although well put and logical , you have missed a group of people out on this (a minority - but still needs to be entered into yur arguement)
those who actual see a problem and help with out fear or arguemtn (I am not one of these - mores the pity) but there are groups of people out there who's aim is to help

THe samartians ( bloody do gooders) ,other groups of peole who are doing there bit - might be a small collective who wishto tidy up their common land/parks etc, peole who are on school governing boards -

these are a small group- however there is no threat or arguement to help
these people- they do it through being decent people - yes some are god sqaud people but not all - have you ever given a Busker/tramp/bum some change - its nothing to you but its a cup of soup to them - a warm meal

If we all did 1 good turn a day it might rub off
I know its not always possible and not always a good idea to gibve a bum some money - so buy him a roll - or a cup of tea

Look at the people who run the soup kitchens for the tramps in London-
no presure on them .. done because they see a problem and they try to solve it (with limited resourses ) typos..
anyway I wish i was more like them - rather than the person who walks pass with averted eyes...
I see the problem - but too embassered or too busy in my own little world to help..

As to those who use violence to make a living - handicap them - brand them a tattoo and see how they are treated ..

we know to our horror the damage guns cause - and we should discourage them ,
Music i feel has been a force for good and evil - RAP songs that promote hatred, and a gun culture - these are in part accountable for the drop in standard espically in regards to manners- an influx of foreigners also ahs an impact - (i am not against "foreigners" its jsut that if you come tot he UK and want to live here then adept to our way of life -If I went to Germany I would learn Germany and the Germany way of live - same as Spain - and to our shame there are a lot of Brits out there that are Brits over there with no intention of adepting ..

see you started me off again Kenn..(I ramble)
 

KenHigg

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You're on a roll Gary...:D

To me it's just the proverbial line in the sand someone has to draw. sticks, knives, hand guns, auto rifles, bombs, missles...

To me banning hand guns over here would only make things much worse. I still can't believe boys can't carry pocket knives to school :(

ken
 

ColinEssex

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Is that all you have :(

I bet you didn't even read all the way through it...

:)
ken

And I'll bet you didn't even write it, in fact, I know you didn't - not enough grammatical errors. Good stuff this copy and paste.

It is American because the word 'favour' (and others) are spelt incorrectly.

It would be better if you had actually offered an opinion instead of throwing out just a random text. Maybe a reference would help, then we can see the actual source.

Col
 
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KenHigg

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And I'll bet you didn't even write it, in fact, I know you didn't - not enough grammatical errors. Good stuff this copy and paste.

It is American because the word 'favour' (and others) are spelt incorrectly.

It would be better if you had actually offered an opinion instead of throwing out just a random text. Maybe a reference would help, then we can see the actual source.

Col


I said I plagiarized it dumbo :p

Speaking of errors I noticed you had to edit your own post - :eek::p:p

:)
ken
 

statsman

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Well in a civilised country like here, one doesn't need any form of protection, because everbody is polite and civil to each other :cool:
Now of course that's not an option in the US where everbody wants a bigger arsenal than the guy next door

That's right. They just abolished the criminal court system in the UK due to lack of business. :rolleyes:
 
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