Seattle (1 Viewer)

[Jon]

The police left to de-escalate the situation and it worked. They are still responding to 911 calls in the area.
I haven't really followed the story but just googling "Seattle CHAZ" I haven't seen any bad stories except for Fox.
Exactly who are the normal people? Are they the ones who dont get pulled over for driving while black?

@moke123 For those who have committed arson, criminal damage, graffiti, looting or violence, do you think they should be prosecuted or let off?

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

What I find interesting about that article is the double-speak.

You may have noticed that I rarely comment on politically live threads. I sometimes felt as if I was "holier Than Thou", I won't go into that playpen because I'm better than you. Then I happened to hear Dr Jordan B Peterson explaining ideology.

I realised that both the left and the right have their own ideology, and although to my mind both groups lie, what I didn't realise is, they don't think they are lying! They believe they are telling the truth.

Now this can be a "real truth" in the sense that it's a political truth, you can make anything the "truth" if you know how to put the words together, and that's the essence of an ideology.

So you have a situation where perfectly normal everyday human beings, people that could be your neighbours, your teachers, your coworkers, your friends, relations, take on an ideology and become something else, something capable of doing evil things.

So this evil person you see on the other side of the fence, is just the same as you, they are looking over the fence back at you, they see another evil person staring back at them. You want to take them out, they want to take you out, but you are both identical, you are both the same, you are both trapped in an ideology which doesn't let you think for yourself. The ideology gives you all the answers, it gives you all the responses, it points out how bad the other side of the fence is, and encourages you to take action with vile words, or even taking it further, throwing a stone, torching a car, a building, a person...

Is that you? Is that person on the other side of the fence really like that? If you actually spoke to that person, and not speaking from your ideology, but really spoke to them like you would your mother, or your brother, sister, if you accept them as somebody with a wife, children, a job, someone struggling in this world just the same as you are, but somebody that is trapped in, listening to, some evil ideology which sets you against them. them against you, if you can actually talk to that person, get to know them. Both would start to see that each of your ideologies are controlling you, and not you them.

To address my first sentence, I'm just as bad as you, and I'm just as good as you, I'm just the same as you. That's the point, we are all so much the same. Instead of seeing the negativeness in someone else, look for the similarities and start from there.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

For those who have committed arson, criminal damage, graffiti, looting or violence, do you think they should be prosecuted or let off?

I think in Sweden they would most definitely get prosecuted.

A Recent case... An 8-year old boy went into a shop and asked if he could buy something with some toy money. He was arrested, house searched for 3 hours where they discovered some more toy money which was confiscated to prevent a repeat of the Crime. The eight-year-old boy now has a criminal record until 2032!

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200610/overzealous-boy-8-gets-criminal-record-for-attempting-to-pay-with-fake-currency

 

[Jon]

I think in Sweden they would most definitely get prosecuted.

A Recent case... An 8-year old boy went into a shop and asked if he could buy something with some toy money. He was arrested, house searched for 3 hours where they discovered some more toy money which was confiscated to prevent a repeat of the Crime. The eight-year-old boy now has a criminal record until 2032!

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200610/overzealous-boy-8-gets-criminal-record-for-attempting-to-pay-with-fake-currency

That's daft! Too young to understand.

 

[Jon]

@Uncle Gizmo Your longer post is very much in line with the Dalai Lama. We have differences, but we are all human beings with common needs amongst all human beings.

Where I may disagree with you is that the assumption that if you have an ideology, you have stopped thinking. Many people have, I agree with that. But it does not mean *ALL* have stopped thinking. And having an ideology does not mean you have just copied it. It may have come from your own internal cogitations.

I would say that while we may quibble over some laws, such as speed limits, death penalty and so on, to me there are plenty of laws that should always be upheld. I include in those violence, robbery, theft, looting, arson. What would the world be like if we turned a blind eye to such activities?

"But wait, the public was angry!"

So when I am angry, if I took a hammer to your car, shall we turn the other cheek? If you beat your wife when angry, is that fine too?

 

[moke123]

For those who have committed arson, criminal damage, graffiti, looting or violence, do you think they should be prosecuted or let off?

Criminal acts should be prosecuted with the caveat that they can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Thats one reason many cases are not prosecuted.

So on the one hand they are saying peaceful, but on the other hand they are saying violent.

I think this assumes that the violent protesters and the peaceful protesters are one in the same.

I think in Sweden they would most definitely get prosecuted.

Good thing he wasn't in Minneapolis. They don't take kindly to passing bad paper.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

That's daft! Too young to understand

Unless of course, he's an 18-year old immigrant that is passing himself off as an 8-year old kid and has been adopted by the family. There is obviously more to this than meets the eye!

 

[Jon]

Criminal acts should be prosecuted with the caveat that they can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

I completely agree. Everybody deserves due process.

I think this assumes that the violent protesters and the peaceful protesters are one in the same.

The article states that those who had violent confrontation with the police now have their own area. Naturally, not all are violent.

Good thing he wasn't in Minneapolis. They don't take kindly to passing bad paper.

I know you are kidding, but on a serious note, branding everybody by a group characteristic is one of the reasons racism exits. "They" (i.e. police from Minneapolis) refers to a group, but an errant officer is an individual.

 

[moke123]

I know you are kidding, but on a serious note, branding everybody by a group characteristic is one of the reasons racism exits. "They" (i.e. police from Minneapolis) refers to a group, but an errant officer is an individual.

As does branding all protesters violent . . .

 

[Jon]

Agreed. As I mentioned, not all are violent. Nothing wrong with peaceful protest.

 

[Steve R.]

Here is Trump's path to step in and kick out the occupiers. Call it a civil rights violation as a violation of due process and a violation of the "taking" clause. And both of those ARE federal jurisdiction cases.

The optics of federal action will be unfortunately very bad and should be discouraged. The mayor has essentially come out in support of the "occupiers". The governor ???????? We also know that the left wing press will be ready to pounce on any federal action with highly inflammatory articles claiming the suppression of free speech and the suppression to the right of assembly.

A better approach, I believe, would be to have a public relations campaign that pushes the narrative this is a local matter for local resolution. If the mayor and governor are unable or unwilling to resolve it, that they are incompetent. Hopefully, the citizens of Seattle would begin to realize that.

PS: I wish it were a lot easier for the President, on his own volition, to cut-off federal monies to state/local governments/universities when they are essentially promoting anti-government activities.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Since posting, this came up: Judge orders Seattle to stop using tear gas during protests . This unfortunate ruling is quite disturbing. essentially the police are being disarmed. But it also points to the "theme" that the "occupiers" are receiving "protection" for their actions which would make any proposed federal intervention an uphill battle that will be severely rebuked on many levels.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

Where I may disagree with you is that the assumption that if you have an ideology, you have stopped thinking

That's a good point.

Putting it a different way, it's easier to follow an ideology, in fact your family, social group may push you in to it.

So it's an easy & lazy, but desirable structure. Thinking becomes unnecessary and is possibly discouraged by the ideology.

 

[Steve R.]

I think in Sweden they would most definitely get prosecuted.

A Recent case... An 8-year old boy went into a shop and asked if he could buy something with some toy money. He was arrested, house searched for 3 hours where they discovered some more toy money which was confiscated to prevent a repeat of the Crime. The eight-year-old boy now has a criminal record until 2032!

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200610/overzealous-boy-8-gets-criminal-record-for-attempting-to-pay-with-fake-currency

Since Sweden came up in the context of overzealous prosecution, there is the case of Julian Assange. There are a lot of aspects to this case that I won't get into. But essentially, Sweden pressed sexual assault charges despite the murkiness surrounding the incident.

 

[Jon]

Putting it a different way, it's easier to follow an ideology, in fact your family, social group may push you in to it.

So it's an easy & lazy, but desirable structure. Thinking becomes unnecessary and is possibly discouraged by the ideology.

I've mentioned this point before on The Mind Tavern. When you have a ready-made lexicon of words and catch-phrases, you can just reel them off without wasting any cognitive energy.

 

[Jon]

Since Sweden came up in the context of overzealous prosecution, there is the case of Julian Assange. There are a lot of aspects to this case that I won't get into. But essentially, Sweden pressed sexual assault charges despite the murkiness surround the incident.

I looked into that a while back and the accuser looked very dodgy to me. Sadly, I cannot remember the details, but was there very strong possibilities of political motive or jealousy or something like that?

Edit: Just had a quick look. One was an equalities officer at university and had a left-wring role at a Swedish political party. She contacted the other "victim", whom she did not know. Later on, they both went to the police with their accusations. Don't you find that a bit odd? Why would one woman contact another she does not know and then do a double accusation?

They had both slept with Assage, but one claimed that he deliberately ripped a condom and so that was considered sexual molestation. The other lady said that they slept using contraception during the night, and again in the morning without contraception. She says the morning case was not consentual. It sounds like a stitch up to me.

 

[Pat Hartman]

PEACEFUL protesters do NOT

1. Deface property
2. Burn Cars
3. Loot Stores
4. Post masked, armed guards
5. Build walls to mark their territory (this is especially hypocritical since if asked, these people will all rail against Trump's intention to build a wall on our southern border)
6. Occupy someone else's territory
7. Threaten shop keepers and residents to pay up or face damage.

This is not political. It is a rule of law issue. You don't get to violate my person or property because you're mad at the government. We also have accessory before and after the fact laws and so anyone with the criminals is also a criminal and should be subject to the same penalties. If you think it is fair to charge the three other police officers as accessories, then it is also fair to charge the "peaceful" bystanders who support these crimes.

This is political. We are devolving into a banana republic because we are selectively enforcing our laws. The ultimate strength of the United States of America WAS its adherence to laws and the fair application thereof. The left has almost destroyed us by prosecuting those they don't like but giving those they do like a pass. The Obama administration was the master at this. Roger Stone, an elderly man with asthma, is going to jail for a non-crime because he is a Trump supporter while actual criminals are being released because the liberals are so worried about the danger from COVID-19. Apparently an elderly man with asthma who committed a non-crime is simply too dangerous to be free even with COVID still rampant in prisons. I do remember feeling much safer when Martha Stuart was incarcerated. Maybe knowing Stone is finally behind bars will make me feel safe again.

 

[Jon]

@Pat Hartman And don't forget the swat team to arrest him, together with the CNN crew who just so "happened" to be outside his house.

 

[Isaac]

I agree that an ideology can function the way Uncle gizmo has described. but I disagree that that's the only way it can function. and ideology can also be a set of beliefs that you've come to after a lifetime of examining yourself in the world around. You don't necessarily re-examine every single one of those beliefs and conclusions every time you open your mouth. That's natural, normal, and practical.

 

[Isaac]

Trayvon Martin's mother calls for more cops, says she disagrees with calls to 'defund' police: report

The mother of Trayvon Martin said she's doesn't support efforts to reduce law enforcement resources as calls to divert funding from police departments toward social service and youth programs continue to gain traction with elected officials.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Isaac]

Here's a quote from Seattle's African-American Chief of Police yesterday.
She stressed that officers have been unable to respond to calls for help inside the autonomous zone.

“Our calls for service have more than tripled,” Best said. “These are responses to emergency calls — rapes, robberies, and all sorts of violent acts that have been occurring in the area that we’re not able to get to.”