Guilty or Not Guilty? The George Floyd trial... (1 Viewer)

Jon

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So your contention is that he said he couldn't breathe because he said he was claustrophobic? How do you know beyond reasonable doubt? He also just came out of a car a few minutes prior. No claustrophobia then. How strange.

Is your contention that Floyd consistently saying he can't breathe, from entering the car to leaving the car and being on the ground were two different reasons? If so, how is a reasonable officer intended to distinguish between the two? Floyd also said he was claustrophobic while outside on the ground. If you believe it was due to claustrophobia, could a reasonable police officer believe that he passed out due to that, as your quote shows is possible?

Floyd was also saying he can't breathe whilst on his side, not in the prone position.

Assuming anything doesn't make it true.
Like with your claustrophobic assumption?
 

Steve R.

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Only in a court of law, not in the court of public opinion.
Maxine Waters, a person who supposedly makes law, does not believe in the court of law. Only mob rule, the court of public opinion, which she is inflaming.
"And now that we have [a] U.S. representative … threatening acts of violence in relation to this specific case, it's it's mind boggling to me to have," Attorney Eric Nelson said, as he attempted to argue that the jury may have been unduly influenced by external factors."
Judge Peter Cahill said that he wished elected officials would stop referencing the case "especially in a manner that is disrespectful to the rule of law" so as to let the judicial process play out as intended.
 
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Jon

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I am not sure what Moke believes because he says the opposite here:
Doesn't innocent until proven guilty apply here?
Source: https://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/threads/riots-in-minneapolis.317281/#post-1760375

So when I state something that could suggest someone is possibly guilty (Daunte Wright case), Moke says how about the assumption of innocence, but when I say what about the assumption of innocence in this case, it's "not in the court of public opinion." This suggests arguing for arguing sake, not about what you really believe.

In any case, look at the prosecution's and defences arguments.

Maxine Waters, a person who supposedly makes law, does not believe in the court of law.
Maxine believes in kangaroo courts, not fair trials. It is already impossible for this to be a fair trial, under the circumstances.
 

Jon

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A fair trial is impartially looking at the evidence with no threat of ruin or violence to oneself whilst evaluating the evidence. Anything else is tilting justice.

Whatever your belief is on this case, consider the possibility that Chauvin acted in what he considered a reasonable manner in line with his training without threat to life, and that this tragic event was caused by a combination of drugs, physical exertion and significant heart problems. Imagine that it was you, and you have the world accusing you of doing something you did not do.

If George Floyd was a healthy person and wasn't saying he cannot breathe in the car beforehand, with no drugs with his saliva DNA on them in the back of the squad car, no high levels of fentanyl or any meth in his system, no enlarged heart, no 90% blocked artery, no extreme blood pressure of 216 over 160 the last time he was arrested, no physical exertion, then I believe it is highly probable that Chauvin's actions led to the death of George Floyd. That is different to saying he is guilty, because an officer only has to act reasonably from his perspective at the time, not with 20:20 vision. But it would move the needle in my opinion further towards a guilty verdict.

But that isn't the case. Those who believe Chauvin is guilty focus on the video whilst he was on the ground, and discount all the other factors.
 

Isaac

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@moke123
Then, when told to get into the squad car, Floyd repeatedly yelled, “I’m not that kind a guy!” and “I’m claustrophobic!” As officers shoved his upper body and then his legs into the car, he writhed and screamed, “Please! Please! … I can’t breathe!”

I didn't even know that happened (but then I've missed alot).

So you're saying that, at the time Derek ignored George saying "I can't breathe" while on the pavement, Derek was already aware that George had previously claimed "I can't breathe" at a time when he obviously still was breathing fine, but was just getting a panic attack (so to speak) from claustrophobia?

I can see someone asking, "How could Derek be expected to understand that while the first "I can't breathe" was a totally unrelated false alarm and could have been safely ignored, the second "I can't breathe" was totally different and shouldn't have been ignored.
 

Jon

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I can see someone asking, "How could Derek be expected to understand that while the first "I can't breathe" was a totally unrelated false alarm and could have been safely ignored, the second "I can't breathe" was totally different and shouldn't have been ignored.
...as stated in my post #241. We are on the same page with this.

The multiple "I can't breathe" episodes in the car are inconvenient to the prosecution. It would seem unlikely to most people that when someone continuously says they can't breathe from within the squad car to outside of it, that it is not for the same reason.
 

moke123

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So your contention is that he said he couldn't breathe because he said he was claustrophobic? How do you know beyond reasonable doubt? He also just came out of a car a few minutes prior. No claustrophobia then. How strange.
My contention is that he believed he couldn't breathe due to his claustrophobia. He came out of the front of an SUV. I guess you didnt hear him on the video ask if he could sit in the front seat of the squad car. You think its doubtful a claustrophobic would say he couldn't breathe when that is a common complaint from claustrophobics?
"Typical thoughts are the fear that they will be trapped, that they will not be able to breathe, or that their anxiety will reach a level of panic that will cause them to lose control in some way," Dr. Schneier says.
But that isn't the case. Those who believe Chauvin is guilty focus on the video whilst he was on the ground, and discount all the other factors.
The video is only one piece of evidence. You seem to be dismissing all the other evidence which doesn't comport to your opinion of the case. What are your opinions as to the credibilty of the defense and prosecutions witnesses? Why do you feel the defense witnesses are more credible? I watched a good portion of the medical testimony. I found the prosecutions experts more compelling than the defense experts and I come from 40 years on the defense side of things.

I am not sure what Moke believes because he says the opposite here:
Doesn't innocent until proven guilty apply here?
Source: https://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/threads/riots-in-minneapolis.317281/#post-1760375

So when I state something that could suggest someone is possibly guilty (Daunte Wright case), Moke says how about the assumption of innocence, but when I say what about the assumption of innocence in this case, it's "not in the court of public opinion." This suggests arguing for arguing sake, not about what you really believe.
You were insinuating that he was guilty of robbing the woman based upon a probable cause report ( which I assume you dont get the distinction of what a probale cause report is) In my experience PCR's are often misleading. I'm sure you've heard the expression that a prosecutor could "Indict a ham sandwich", its not far from that.

I can see someone asking, "How could Derek be expected to understand that while the first "I can't breathe" was a totally unrelated false alarm and could have been safely ignored, the second "I can't breathe" was totally different and shouldn't have been ignored.
I can see your point but I also see the change in circumstance from being put in a car to 4 cops on top of him.
 

Steve R.

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“First of all, the judge should have granted the motion for a mistrial based on the efforts of Congresswoman Waters to influence the jury,” Dershowitz declared. “Her message was clearly intended to get to the jury — ‘If you will acquit or if you find the charge less than murder, we will burn down your buildings. We will burn down your businesses. We will attack you. We will do what happened to the witness — blood on their door.’
According to Waters, should the jury not summarily "lynch" Chauvin, Waters wants the Black community to burn down Minneapolis. For Waters, the rule-of-law means nothing. Should the "left" point the finger of blame at you, you are guilty. Therefore Chauvin is guilty, the jury's decision is irrelevant. Banana Republic all the way.
 
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Isaac

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Maxine Waters is a clown who gets away with saying horribly inciteful things.
 

Steve R.

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Maxine Waters is a clown who gets away with saying horribly inciteful things.
Unfortunately, the "terrorist" remarks of Waters preclude Chauvin from getting a fair trial based on the rule of law and may have contributed to unfairly tilting the 2020 Presidential election in favor of Biden. The Democrats are covering for her and allowing those vile remarks to go forward without being challenged. The Chauvin trial may now be simply a pointless exercise in futility.
 

Isaac

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This leads to the question of venue and decisions Cahill has had to make (I don't envy his position). So what if, hypothetically, we all agreed that an unbiased jury, to the extent of lack-of-bias that is normally considered the minimum standard (whatever that is), simply couldn't be found in Minnesota? How then should society handle this case? Just let it proceed as Cahill has done without even trying to change venue? What is the right or moral decision in high profile cases like this? Are all defendants essentially at a "fame"-based disadvantage? Does it matter?

Are they mostly all guilty in these situations anyway, because a case usually becomes "high profile" based on overwhelming evidence? (I guess the answer there is most likely a resounding No, of course, but I bring it up anyway)
 

Jon

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My contention is that he believed he couldn't breathe due to his claustrophobia. He came out of the front of an SUV. I guess you didnt hear him on the video ask if he could sit in the front seat of the squad car. You think its doubtful a claustrophobic would say he couldn't breathe when that is a common complaint from claustrophobics?
The front of the SUV is a confined space, but no issues there. So relaxed he was nodding off uncontrollably and hard to wake, according to his ex girlfriend. He said he was claustrophobic when he was outside too. The prosecutions own police witnesses confirmed that during arrest, many people fake illness in order to avoid being arrested.

Do you believe that high levels of fentanyl doesn't suppress breathing?
The effects of fentanyl on the respiratory system include a decrease in peripheral and central chemoreceptor gains on ventilation and a direct inhibition of respiratory neural activity.

How do you account for a meth/fentanyl combination partially dissolved pill with Floyd's saliva on it being found in the back of the squad car?

I found the prosecutions experts more compelling than the defense experts and I come from 40 years on the defense side of things.
Appealing to authority is a non-argument. You have a predetermined opinion of what you think the verdict is, and have already stated you know what the defence will say before they even started their part of the trial. In other words, no point in hearing from the defence, you already know he is guilty. Maxine Waters feels the same way. If you have predetermined guilt before hearing the defence, you will end up finding reasons to support your belief and downgrade those which contradict your conclusion. That is bias. Forty years of experience does not eliminate bias. It comes inbuilt into the human brain.

You were insinuating that he was guilty of robbing the woman based upon a probable cause report ( which I assume you dont get the distinction of what a probale cause report is)

A common definition of probable cause is below:
A common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#:~:text=In United States criminal law,grand juries issue criminal indictments.

So he probably did it. Factor in his skipping bail, unlicensed firearm possession, being identified in a lineup, skipping court, and fighting with police officers adds up to someone who was most likely guilty and wanted to escape, because they thought they would be going to jail. And you said yourself that in the court of public opinion, the person is not innocent until proven guilty.

The whole issue with reasonable doubt is not whether or not you believe claustrophobia was the cause of his breathing issues, but whether you believe serious heart problems, and drugs in his system combined with fighting with police officers cannot be a significant contributing factor. They were contributing factors according to the autopsy.

Edit: Other contributing factors include the other officers. If Chauvin is guilty, so are they, most likely. Therefore, Chauvin's portion of guilt becomes less of the pie and a smaller contributing factor. What about the paramedics, who did a "load and go" rather than resuccitating on the spot. That vital lost time could have been a contributing factor that led to Floyd being incapable of resuscitation. Why did they do a load and go? Because the scene did not seem safe. The agitating crowd therefore also have some culpability. The more factors that are culpable of causing death, the less it all falls on Chauvin.
 
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Uncle Gizmo

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If I ever get caught Jon, I want you as a juror!
 
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Jon

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In many cases, jurors probably act emotionally rather than rationally. Perhaps Moke can attest to that.

My belief is that in the future, they will use AI bots that can crunch and parse all the evidence and squirt out a verdict. Us humans are prone to error, bias, mistakes, and may even take a dislike to someone based just on how they look! The AI bot is less likely to be influenced by media!

Just had an idea. What about crowdsourcing verdicts to like 100,000 people? :D
 

Isaac

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In many cases, jurors probably act emotionally rather than rationally. Perhaps Moke can attest to that.

My belief is that in the future, they will use AI bots that can crunch and parse all the evidence and squirt out a verdict. Us humans are prone to error, bias, mistakes, and may even take a dislike to someone based just on how they look! The AI bot is less likely to be influenced by media!

Just had an idea. What about crowdsourcing verdicts to like 100,000 people? :D
I just had an amazing idea, too!

What if we found a way to work into the jury deliberations, testing their memory of prosecution and defense points? Let's say that part of the package each side submits to the court is a list of testable facts. Say, 20 things that are critical pieces of evidence for their side. They are considered "facts" in the sense that "It is a fact that the defense presented a witness who said ___________"

During jury deliberations, the verdict cannot be rendered until each juror can answer - with no assistance - all 20 questions regarding each side.

This way when the whole thing is done, you know for a fact that every juror rendered his/her verdict, all the while being fully cognizant and remembering all major points from both sides. I love this idea!
 
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Steve R.

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My belief is that in the future, they will use AI bots that can crunch and parse all the evidence and squirt out a verdict. Us humans are prone to error, bias, mistakes, and may even take a dislike to someone based just on how they look! The AI bot is less likely to be influenced by media!
Are you sure you want that. Don't forget that AIs have to be programmed. Seems that social media has already developed algorithms that can identify and suppress certain content. So how can we assume that jury AI won't be biased?

That reminds me of a recent Science Fiction story, where self-driving cars are a reality. Briefly, a programmer was able to modify the AI in a particular car to use that car to kill a person.
 

Steve R.

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More interference by the Democratic establishment in the Chauvin trial.
“I’m praying the verdict is the right verdict,” Biden told reporters Tuesday. “The evidence is overwhelming in my view.”
As with Waters, Biden does not get to nullify the jury. So the "right" verdict according to Biden is "guilty". If the jury makes any other finding, then rioting/looting/property destruction are acceptable behavior.
 

Jon

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So how can we assume that jury AI won't be biased?
Beta testing, a bit like when selecting jurors. Both sides have to agree.

However, what if the bot goes rogue? It out-argues everybody, persuading them into a legal corner. Everybody goes to jail and no one is left to run the power grid. "Daisy......daisy....."

 

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