Guilty or Not Guilty? The George Floyd trial... (2 Viewers)

Jon

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Wow, the defence is scoring some big points here. They brought in one of the police officers who also testified for the prosecution. She said that if someone has excited delirium, they can rapidly go into cardiac arrest. She wasn't coached into saying that, the defence just asked why you call EMS if someone exhibits excited delirium and that was her response. She also said you might need to have more resources than you need because of their strength under this condition and that they should be restrained. The description of excited delirium also seemed to fit George Floyd's condition at time of arrest. She confirmed this is part of the officers training.
 

Jon

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It seems the defence is painting this picture: George Floyd has a history of extremely high blood pressure (216/160 measured in one instance); he has a 90% blocked coronary artery; he has a history of not taking his blood pressure medications; he has meth in his system, which is bad for the heart; he was exhibiting excited delirium at the time of arrest, which can lead to cardiac arrest; he was physically exerting himself by struggling with officers; he had high levels of fentanyl in his system, which suppresses breathing.

Is this combination of factors enough to cause reasonable doubt? Or is it all about the knee?

If someone was perfectly healthy and they died as a result of that interaction, I would think that the officers must have killed him, because there didn't seem to be any other potential reason for that person to die. It would seem highly improbable. But there are a large number of reasons that point to a potential heart attack. That gives me significant doubt, and especially with him saying he couldn't breathe before being restrained on the ground.
 

moke123

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How do you know it went out of business and if it did, why is that relevant?

The reason I ask is that yesterday there was this post on the R&R Law Group's Facebook page:

View attachment 90782

Another post...

View attachment 90783

In fact, they have hundreds of posts to their Facebook page in the last year, citing cases they did and advertising their services. This suggests they are up and running. I don't know the answer to if they went out of business in 2018, but If you can't prove your point without misleading, what does that say about the strength of your argument? Just sayin'.
I said the law school he went to , not his firm.
 

moke123

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Jon, You've left out the fact that George Floyd was a smoker.
 

Jon

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I went to a little-known, barely accredited law school called Thomas Jefferson, in 2003
@Isaac Are you a trained lawyer?
 

Jon

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Jon, You've left out the fact that George Floyd was a smoker.
And you still can't see the reasonable doubt. You've closed your mind before the defence has started, like CNN.
 
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Isaac

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@Isaac Are you a trained lawyer?
No. I attended about half of the required time. I greatly enjoyed law school, it was my original life-plan. Ranked in the top 5%, got invited to Law Review, had my Civil Procedure II final exam used by the professor as the "model exam" for next year's students to study.

Regrettably, I had to withdraw for personal reasons about a year and a half into it. That was a long time ago. I then went into technical work. I won't say I never looked back, because I look back a lot, but never went back to legal education.

It's something I've always been interested in, and enjoyed. I've often felt that I learned more during that first year than I learned in the previous 24 years combined! Lots of appreciation for the system that gives us the security & freedom we enjoy every day.
 

Jon

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Interesting. In more recent years I've thought law would suit my logical inclinations. Maybe there is a connection with the programmers type of mind. I find it easy to see the holes in arguments, where people overcommit their position, where they expose themselves to vulnerable positions and so on. Perhaps I have built up some kind of semantic pattern recognition over time, after watching lots of legal case. As a young man, I would have been rubbish though. Lazy, bit of a slow starter in my education and you need to start early for law.

You probably got great grades to get into law school, right?
 

Isaac

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Interesting. In more recent years I've thought law would suit my logical inclinations. Maybe there is a connection with the programmers type of mind. I find it easy to see the holes in arguments, where people overcommit their position, where they expose themselves to vulnerable positions and so on. Perhaps I have built up some kind of semantic pattern recognition over time, after watching lots of legal case. As a young man, I would have been rubbish though. Lazy, bit of a slow starter in my education and you need to start early for law.

You probably got great grades to get into law school, right?
My college grades were nothing special, I think I graduated with a B average. But I performed well on the LSAT and got about 70% scholarship to the school.

I think both careers have an appreciation for Rules and Structure. They both have a lot of Rules and Structure (predictability), but many different ways to "spin" things...thus bringing in our creative sides, too. I do see parallels.

I saw probably a half dozen 40 yr olds in my part-time class, and a few 50+ year olds. Not a lot but enough to prove it is possible!
 

Jon

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"Structure" - that is a good word for it. Kinda like a semantic structure. They call them programming "languages" for a reason, because they too have syntax, grammar and structure.

When you see a trial like this, does any of your legal background from back then help at all?
 

Isaac

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"Structure" - that is a good word for it. Kinda like a semantic structure. They call them programming "languages" for a reason, because they too have syntax, grammar and structure.
True!
When you see a trial like this, does any of your legal background from back then help at all?
Honestly, not really. I did take Criminal Procedure, but a lot of what I remember was being confused between how much weight I should give the Model Penal Code vs. state-side precedent vs. state statutes. My top class was [federal] Civil Procedure, Torts, etc. I enjoyed that a LOT.

The most way my learning helped my understanding in the long term was just realizing how nuanced everything is. I learned that the lay person hugely over-simplifies things, like: "I could sue you for that", or "You signed ___ waiver, you could never sue me for this" - "always", "never", etc...

For Torts I learned how logical and sensible it really is. I came into it thinking (like many people), "there is too much suing going on, everyone wants money". During Torts I learned that damaging incidents that occur between people almost always have costs. You cannot get away from or erase that. Tort law simply seeks to determine who should pay that unavoidable cost which already exists, and thus is inherently fair on principle.

For crim law I realized how important elements of a crime is. That every crime has elements. They must all be met. Defense comes down to undermining one of those elements as best as you can. Most have a required mental state - and for those that do, the mental state is extremely important, but even that concept is significantly weakened by the categories like willful blindness and statutory liability (like Speeding).

I also learned to carefully watch for grounds for appeal, and the difference between findings of facts vs. findings of law--the latter being (usually) the only grounds for taking it to an Appeals court. But--that being an enormously huge category, given the body of law (just procedure alone even!) Any good defense attorney is making a long list of possible grounds for an appeal, and appeals courts generally will defer to the trial court's findings of fact (a bit scary, actually).

I think I would have ended up in some line of work that focused a lot on the interplay between Contracts and Torts. Possibly just another underpaid, average suit! Ha ha. I sometimes wonder if I like law so much that I should go back and try for some hideous, cheaper, online degree--just because I'd love to actually practice it, no matter how much people laughed at my diploma. Maybe someday!

I think most of my concepts of criminal justice fairness that I went in with, I retained. For example, I think the punishment should always fit the crime--JUST the crime, and not anything else. This is why I am very against "hate crime" laws. I simply feel it's inappropriate to punish people based on what they were thinking at the time--with the narrow exception for their intent to actually commit the crime...but not the detailed 'why' (etc), it's just too big a category to open up! (IMHO). Hate crimes is an example of states simply adding more criminal liability to the books as a response to people's failure to enforce existing crimes. You don't need a hate crime for punching someone in the face for specific reasons. Just start universally and consistently enforcing laws prohibiting people from punching others in the face! Then all victims will get equal justice for equal suffering.
 

Jon

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I don't actually know what a Tort is.

I dated a criminal lawyer for 2 years, and she said that people would criticise her because she was defending criminals! She had her first ra** case, and she said the guy really creeped her out by the way he was looking at her. Made her feel really uneasy. But she had to represent him! Later on she pivoted to being a sports lawyer, not sure why.
 

Isaac

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I don't actually know what a Tort is.

I dated a criminal lawyer for 2 years, and she said that people would criticise her because she was defending criminals! She had her first ra** case, and she said the guy really creeped her out by the way he was looking at her. Made her feel really uneasy. But she had to represent him! Later on she pivoted to being a sports lawyer, not sure why.
Tort - civil cause of action, basically non criminal - people suing each other.

I wonder how much American and British law is the same? At the very beginning we certainly studied theories that were derived largely from British law, and I get the impression that they are so similar they might be more similar than different. Big statement there, though, and I'm not totally sure.
 

moke123

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I dated a criminal lawyer for 2 years, and she said that people would criticise her because she was defending criminals! She had her first ra** case, and she said the guy really creeped her out by the way he was looking at her. Made her feel really uneasy. But she had to represent him! Later on she pivoted to being a sports lawyer, not sure why.
You take your clients as they come.
How'd ya like to rep Caius
caius.jpeg
 

Jon

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We shouldn't judge on appearances. He might be a lovely chap! Although I won't be inviting him over for a cup of tea anytime soon.

In my previous incarnation as a sales rep, I've been in hundreds of homes in poor areas. Most people seem fine at home, however rough they look. It's when they get into groups where the dynamic changes. Some areas made my toes curl, especially as I was walking around with a suit on.

I remember asking one lady what her husband did for a living and she said he was a burglar. Fancy that!
 
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Jon

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Isaac, I've got a feeling Tort is in UK law too. I think cloning much of the UK legal system in the early days would make sense, since it was built up from a long history. Not sure if dunking witches was in there or not.
 

Jon

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I've never heard of him, although he does seem as though he wants to make a statement with his appearance.

Put him in a nice suit and tie and no one will notice.
 

Jon

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Too many snuff movies.
 

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