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moke123

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One thing that nearly got me to buying another was some of the fitness apps, where you do boxing or whack things as they come towards you.
There's a Star Wars/ Darth Vader game where you battle various drones with a light saber. You can work up a good sweat after a few bouts.

 

Jon

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I was thinking, during my morning coffee, that a $250,000,000 fine for Trump looks rather large for inflating property values, regardless of whether it is true or not, or if there was a victim, which there wasn't. What would the loss be to Trump? Is it the $250M + the decimating of his business empire? If they take over his properties, do they sell them off and he gets the proceeds? Are they trying to ruin him personally, and not just his election chances?

Also, how can they get away with a commercial case being put through non-commercial proceedings? What does the left say about that?

From the perspective of someone who doesn't live in America, the judicial system over there seems a tad shoddy to say the least. It appears to be more about politics than fairness.
 

NauticalGent

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seems a tad IS outrageously shoddy to say the least. It appears to be IS shamefully more about politics than fairness.
(y) The problem is, both sides think it only applies to them and refuse to see how we ALL are suffering from BOHICA...
 

Pat Hartman

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Also, how can they get away with a commercial case being put through non-commercial proceedings? What does the left say about that?
It is perfectly justified as long as the victim is the evil orange man. He must be a criminal. We don't like him so clearly he is guilty of something. We're just going to keep passing retroactive laws (the ra** case in NY - the law will expire next week so start your lawsuit while you still can) and using invalid interpretations of others until we find something, anything, that will stick.
 

Steve R.

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From the perspective of someone who doesn't live in America, the judicial system over there seems a tad shoddy to say the least. It appears to be more about politics than fairness.
I've heard some short video clips were the respondents are implying that Robert Hur, the special counsel investigating Biden's holding of classified documents, will not be filing any charges against Biden. Yet the case against Trump's possession of classified documents is proceeding unimpeded.

When one pulls back the curtain, it is clear that Biden is being given a pass and Trump has been singled out for persecution.
The quickie comparison: when Comey investigated H. Clinton he came to the conclusion that while the law was broken, no reasonable prosecutor would file charges. Another example, Trumps residence was physically assaulted by a "swat" team to gather evidence (and for the propaganda value of the optics), but Biden's residence was not.
The fact that we have a two tier justice system is further illustrated by the story below.
 

Pat Hartman

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I would love to say "what goes around comes around" but if Trump wins the election, he will not be persecuting the people who have been persecuting him no matter what the left says. He will however fire them for allowing politics to keep them from doing their actual jobs.

All this fear mongering by the left brings back memories of the grand mufti of Jerusalem telling the Palestinians in 1948 that they had to leave Israel proper or they would be persecuted by the Jews (those who stayed, were not persecuted) And now the lies they are still telling about Israel targeting civilians in the war against Hamas. They conveniently forget to mention that the girly boys of Hamas are hiding behind the skirts of women and the carriages of children. Very manly, "heroes":poop: As usual, they accuse their opposition of doing what they themselves do. The left has become virtually indistinguishable from Hamas with whom they now align themselves.
 

jpl458

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I was thinking, during my morning coffee, that a $250,000,000 fine for Trump looks rather large for inflating property values, regardless of whether it is true or not, or if there was a victim, which there wasn't. What would the loss be to Trump? Is it the $250M + the decimating of his business empire? If they take over his properties, do they sell them off and he gets the proceeds? Are they trying to ruin him personally, and not just his election chances?

Also, how can they get away with a commercial case being put through non-commercial proceedings? What does the left say about that?

From the perspective of someone who doesn't live in America, the judicial system over there seems a tad shoddy to say the least. It appears to be more about politics than fairness.
if there was a victim, which there wasn't

By inflating the value of the properties he got better terms. If the lender knew the the actual values were lower, then the terms would not have been so good, and the lender would have made more profit. But then he under valued the properties for property tax purposes. Therefore , he tried to have it both ways. I wish I could do the same thing, but I don't have a brand, and lawyers that I don't pay.

From the perspective of someone who doesn't live in America, the judicial system over there seems a tad shoddy to say the least. It appears to be more about politics than fairness.

There are laws here that say you can't do what the Trump organization attempted to do, which is why he is in court.
 

Steve R.

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If the lender knew the the actual values were lower, then the terms would not have been so good, and the lender would have made more profit.
The lender is required to do their own appraisals of the property. Consequently, the lender can't know that "the actual values were lower" as they would have independently confirmed the actual value of the property. And as previously stated, the value of property is subjective since it changes over time and is also affected by the analysis of the various appraisers. Since there is no injured party (victim), there is no fraud.

There are laws here that say you can't do what the Trump organization attempted to do, which is why he is in court.
Trump is in court because because the prosecutor and judge are pursuing a political (Stalinist) trial, not a legal trial based on the rule-of-law.

Did Trump overestimate, or did judge underestimate , Trump's fortune? This is a 30 minute podcast by Alan Dershowitz.

Get Trump makes clear that unconstitutional efforts to stop Trump from retaking the presidency challenge the very foundations of our due process, right to counsel, and free speech. Those who justify these dangerous departures from the rule of law argue that the threat posed by a second Trump presidency is “different” and “immediate,” while the departures from constitutional norms are longer term and more abstract. Dershowitz explains that defenders of Trump’s constitutional rights—even those like him who oppose Trump politically—are sought to be silenced; their free speech rights attacked, their integrity questioned, and their careers threatened. Much of the media substitutes advocacy against Trump for objective reporting, while many in academia petition and propagandize against rights they previously valued—all in the interest of getting Trump. The essence of justice is that it must be equally applicable to all, Dershowitz notes. No one is above the law but digging to find crimes in order to influence an election does not constitute the equal application of the law.
 
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AccessBlaster

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Jon

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if there was a victim, which there wasn't

By inflating the value of the properties he got better terms. If the lender knew the the actual values were lower, then the terms would not have been so good, and the lender would have made more profit. But then he under valued the properties for property tax purposes. Therefore , he tried to have it both ways. I wish I could do the same thing, but I don't have a brand, and lawyers that I don't pay.

From the perspective of someone who doesn't live in America, the judicial system over there seems a tad shoddy to say the least. It appears to be more about politics than fairness.

There are laws here that say you can't do what the Trump organization attempted to do, which is why he is in court.
Does the lender not do their own valuations? And if you say they lost profit, you are saying they lent the money on Trumps valuations despite knowing the property was worth less, else how do you know they lost profit? Furthermore, they would have lost even more profit had they not loaned him the money,

Why the civil trial rather than in the commercial court?
 

Pat Hartman

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but I don't have a brand, and lawyers that I don't pay.
Who says he doesn't pay his lawyers? Think about this without hatred blinding you. Do you actually think lawyer B would agree to work for Trump if lawyer A said Trump didn't pay him?? Reallllllly???? How stupid would lawyer B be? Would you take a programming job for a company that didn't pay the previous programmer? Why are you willing to believe this kind of accusation? And worse, why are you willing to spread it as fact? Do you actually think people who don't get paid don't sue for non payment? Do you think a lawyer is not capable of suing Trump for non-payment?

Therefore , he tried to have it both ways. I wish I could do the same thing,
If you have ever bought or sold property, you have done EXACTLY what Trump did. The seller places a value on a piece of property, you are under no obligation to pay the asking price. If a borrower is asking for a loan, you are under no obligation to accept the borrower's assessment of value. And finally, in what universe does the property owner get to specify the value of a property for purposes of paying tax:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: I want to live there. Can I tag along as you march into your tax assessors office and tell him how much he should value your house at. I want to see his face;)
 

moke123

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Who says he doesn't pay his lawyers?
His lawyers.

Do you actually think lawyer B would agree to work for Trump if lawyer A said Trump didn't pay him?? Reallllllly???? How stupid would lawyer B be?
Lawyer B would be really smart and demand a really large retainer up front. Unfortunately since every thing trump touches dies, Lawyer B is likely to wind up a defendant, witness, or disbarred like many of his past attorneys.



Why are you willing to believe this kind of accusation? And worse, why are you willing to spread it as fact?
Because I lived in New York most of my life and it's pretty well known.

Do you actually think people who don't get paid don't sue for non payment? Do you think a lawyer is not capable of suing Trump for non-payment?

The paper also reported that more than 200 liens have been filed against Trump or his businesses by contractors and employees dating back to the 1980s. The claimants include curtain makers, chandelier shops, cabinet makers and even Trump's lawyers who represented him in prior cases.
I underlined the lawyer part so you wouldn't miss it.

But a USA TODAY NETWORK analysis found he has been involved in more than 3,500 lawsuits over the past three decades — and a large number of those involve ordinary Americans, like the Friels, who say Trump or his companies have refused to pay them.

USA Today also reported, citing data from the Department of Labor, that two of Trump's now-defunct businesses were cited 24 times beginning in 2005 for failing to pay overtime or minimum wage. The cases were settled when the companies — the Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and Trump Mortgage LLC — agreed to pay back wages.
The USA Today report cited one case involving a 1990 project at the Trump Taj Mahal in Atlantic City, during which New Jersey regulators found that Trump had failed to pay at least 253 subcontractors in full or on time.
In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, former Trump Plaza president Jack O'Connell said Trump made withholding payment a part of his business strategy.
"Part of how he did business as a philosophy was to negotiate the best price he could," O'Connell said. "And then when it came time to pay the bills," Trump would say "'I’m going to pay you but I’m going to pay you 75% of what we agreed to.'"
More recently, USA Today reported that the management company behind Trump National Doral Miami settled with 48 servers who sued for unpaid overtime after working a 10-day Passover event. The average settlement for each worker was $800.
Also last month, a Florida judge ordered that the resort be foreclosed on and sold to pay a painter more than $30,000 for his work as part of a Doral renovation more than two years ago. In that case, the manager of the contractor behind the renovation testified that the painter was not paid because Trump had "already paid enough."
There's a lot of examples out there.
 
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Pat Hartman

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There's a lot of examples out there.
But we can't talk about all the people who did quality work and who got paid in full because that doesn't count.

I am not condoning what most would call "sharp" business practices. But people still choose to work for his companies because they expect the companies to be satisfied with their work and pay in full.

You seem to think that the Trump businesses are the only ones in the world who operate like this. I can confirm from personal experience that they are not. My business partner and I are about to cancel a customer's software license for non-payment of a support incident invoice. The client's division was being sold to a very large company and I provided support on moving the application to Citrix on a cloud based server. Our contract clearly states that support like this isn't covered in our maintenance agreement since there was no problem with the application. They're having an internal fight over whether the old company or the new company should pay my invoice. Not my problem. The crazy thing is that my task would have taken 15 minutes and I wouldn't have even billed for it but they insisted I be part of a conference call to work on this and it had to happen on a weekend because they didn't want to disturb daily operations. I ended up spending 10 hours on this project over two weekends for no reason at all so I billed them.

Companies all too frequently choose to illegally classify highly paid personnel as exempt in order to avoid paying them overtime. They also don't pay overtime to contractors. It is up to the company that is providing the contract staff to pay the overtime premium if necessary. The FLSA specifies the rules for this classification and only people who actually manage other people can be classified as exempt. So, no matter how much you pay your programmers, they are not exempt because they don't typically manage other people. I ran into this all the time in the 70's and 80's until I started my own company and worked for myself. I was even an "included party" in a lawsuit brought by other employees of the large NY based country-wide consulting firm I worked for in the 70's. Their policy was that they didn't pay overtime unless the customer paid overtime. Most of us took that to mean, we got paid for all hours worked but not at a premium. However, the company was trying to establish a foothold in Miami and so they gave their first two clients "free" hours. On the Ryder account, they gave the company 40 hours per month "free" and on my account, they gave the client 20 hours. We were in our third week of the assignment when our client noticed the freebee in his contract and instructed us all to work an extra hour each day. So we did. As a group the 7 of us arrived en masse at 8:00 AM (we waited in the parking lot until everyone had arrived) and got up and walked out as a group at 6:00 on the dot no matter what was going on. The client got the message and 4 days later rescinded the order. That didn't happen at Ryder so the guys sued and since the lawsuit was about the practice of giving "free" hours, my team was also included and four years later, we got paid for 4 hours of overtime. This lawsuit changed the face of the big company consulting business in the US and how they had to pay their employees.

I don't condone the behavior but it looks like at least the injured parties do get justice.
 

jpl458

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Who says he doesn't pay his lawyers? Think about this without hatred blinding you. Do you actually think lawyer B would agree to work for Trump if lawyer A said Trump didn't pay him?? Reallllllly???? How stupid would lawyer B be? Would you take a programming job for a company that didn't pay the previous programmer? Why are you willing to believe this kind of accusation? And worse, why are you willing to spread it as fact? Do you actually think people who don't get paid don't sue for non payment? Do you think a lawyer is not capable of suing Trump for non-payment?


If you have ever bought or sold property, you have done EXACTLY what Trump did. The seller places a value on a piece of property, you are under no obligation to pay the asking price. If a borrower is asking for a loan, you are under no obligation to accept the borrower's assessment of value. And finally, in what universe does the property owner get to specify the value of a property for purposes of paying tax:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: I want to live there. Can I tag along as you march into your tax assessors office and tell him how much he should value your house at. I want to see his face;)
I know Lawyers, personally, that were stiffed by Trump in Chicago when Trump was building the Tower there, as well as a number of folks that bought condos early, at a discount price, then at closing, Trump tried to charge them an inflated price. They all took him to court and he lost. These are facts, not suppositions. I know these people. I have drunk beer with them. Trump is a rich deadbeat. I read where recent lawyers referred to defending Trump as a suicide mission. But there were a number of tradesman that were stiffed by Trump and couldn't afford to sue, so they went out of business. I repeat, Trump is a known deadbeat. As i told you earlier, I worked for a developer that warned me that if I ever did work for Trump, get the money up front. That is what is happening with his current lawyers. They are lawyers and not stupid.
 

Pat Hartman

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Trump is a rich deadbeat
But from what you say, he isn't actually a deadbeat and no one ever discloses why Trump or the Trump organization was reluctant to pay a particular bill. Do you believe that every bill presented by a tradesman must be paid? Have you never questioned an invoice? Sure hope they didn't put the 20 year shingles on your roof when they billed you for 40 year shingles.

I am not condoning stiffing people who work for you. All I am saying is that there are always two sides to a story and when it comes to evil orange man bad, we only ever hear one set of "facts" and since you are predisposed to disliking Trump, you are happy to never know the opposing viewpoint. It doesn't matter why Trump thought he shouldn't pay an invoice. He was wrong because he is the evil orange man.

Trump is a sharp businessman. That means that he is demanding and he expects quality results. Really good attributes for a President BTW. I know two lawyers I would have stiffed if I had been willing to endure a lawsuit. Neither was working in my best interest. One of them I filed an ethics complaint against after a mutual friend started talking to me about a legal action I was taking against a client for non-payment (it happens to all of us on occasion. in this case, I was the subcontractor and the client didn't pay him so he decided he didn't need to pay me). I would eventually have mentioned the legal action to the mutual friend but I hadn't at that point in time so the lawyer broke my confidentiality by talking about my business to someone else. It didn't matter that he knew we were friends. Lawyers don't get to discuss client business with uninvolved third parties. Should I have paid for his service which was never completed since I fired him for cause or should I have stiffed him?
I read where recent lawyers referred to defending Trump as a suicide mission.
That is because Trump's opponents start a drive to cancel them when they agree to represent Trump. Just listen to Alan Dershowitz, a very liberal Democrat who voted for Clinton and Biden and anti-Trump from the beginning. That isn't the way the legal system is supposed to work or do you think it is? Our justice system presumes you are innocent unless found guilty in a court of law. Does the fact that you don't like Trump mean he doesn't deserve representation by lawyers? So, you are OK with lawyers who agree to representing Trump being cancelled and fired from their law firms? Shouldn't the lawyers themselves be able to determine if they want to represent Trump? Somehow, we're OK with lawyers representing terrorists, rapists, murders, etc. But they can't represent Trump without being cancelled?????????? What is wrong with this picture? Maybe you or someone close to you will end up in a situation where you need representation and can't get it. You forget that the left always eats its own. Look how the rabid pro Hamas faction is eating Biden. Do these rioters actually know that Hamas is officially a Terrorist organization? Do they know that the Hamas charter is to kill all the Jews? Are you ok with killing all Jews? Who's next after the Jews are gone? The homosexuals? The mentally deficient? The physically impaired?

I too know people who know Trump personally and like him very much. On the other hand, living where I do in Fairfield County, we get a lot of NYC news and so I've read stories about Trump for the past 40 years given his man about town status. Some stories about the good things he's done and others about the lawsuits. The problem though is that when I read the stories about the lawsuits, there is only ever one side of the argument presented. The "reporters" never write about why the Trump organization did not want to pay someone for goods or services they said they provided. That tells me that their reporting is not objective. It is intended to make the public believe that Trump got what they think he deserved.

PS, I took the case to a different lawyer and won the lawsuit. The client ran out of money which is why he didn't pay my client's invoice but that didn't mean that my client didn't have to pay me. I'm guessing that some of the lawsuits against Trump were of that ilk also. subcontracting is very common in the building industry. If my client didn't have money to pay, I would have had to sue the client's client to see if I could get any money from them.
 

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But from what you say, he isn't actually a deadbeat and no one ever discloses why Trump or the Trump organization was reluctant to pay a particular bill. Do you believe that every bill presented by a tradesman must be paid? Have you never questioned an invoice? Sure hope they didn't put the 20 year shingles on your roof when they billed you for 40 year shingles.

I am not condoning stiffing people who work for you. All I am saying is that there are always two sides to a story and when it comes to evil orange man bad, we only ever hear one set of "facts" and since you are predisposed to disliking Trump, you are happy to never know the opposing viewpoint. It doesn't matter why Trump thought he shouldn't pay an invoice. He was wrong because he is the evil orange man.

Trump is a sharp businessman. That means that he is demanding and he expects quality results. Really good attributes for a President BTW. I know two lawyers I would have stiffed if I had been willing to endure a lawsuit. Neither was working in my best interest. One of them I filed an ethics complaint against after a mutual friend started talking to me about a legal action I was taking against a client for non-payment (it happens to all of us on occasion. in this case, I was the subcontractor and the client didn't pay him so he decided he didn't need to pay me). I would eventually have mentioned the legal action to the mutual friend but I hadn't at that point in time so the lawyer broke my confidentiality by talking about my business to someone else. It didn't matter that he knew we were friends. Lawyers don't get to discuss client business with uninvolved third parties. Should I have paid for his service which was never completed since I fired him for cause or should I have stiffed him?

That is because Trump's opponents start a drive to cancel them when they agree to represent Trump. Just listen to Alan Dershowitz, a very liberal Democrat who voted for Clinton and Biden and anti-Trump from the beginning. That isn't the way the legal system is supposed to work or do you think it is? Our justice system presumes you are innocent unless found guilty in a court of law. Does the fact that you don't like Trump mean he doesn't deserve representation by lawyers? So, you are OK with lawyers who agree to representing Trump being cancelled and fired from their law firms? Shouldn't the lawyers themselves be able to determine if they want to represent Trump? Somehow, we're OK with lawyers representing terrorists, rapists, murders, etc. But they can't represent Trump without being cancelled?????????? What is wrong with this picture? Maybe you or someone close to you will end up in a situation where you need representation and can't get it. You forget that the left always eats its own. Look how the rabid pro Hamas faction is eating Biden. Do these rioters actually know that Hamas is officially a Terrorist organization? Do they know that the Hamas charter is to kill all the Jews? Are you ok with killing all Jews? Who's next after the Jews are gone? The homosexuals? The mentally deficient? The physically impaired?

I too know people who know Trump personally and like him very much. On the other hand, living where I do in Fairfield County, we get a lot of NYC news and so I've read stories about Trump for the past 40 years given his man about town status. Some stories about the good things he's done and others about the lawsuits. The problem though is that when I read the stories about the lawsuits, there is only ever one side of the argument presented. The "reporters" never write about why the Trump organization did not want to pay someone for goods or services they said they provided. That tells me that their reporting is not objective. It is intended to make the public believe that Trump got what they think he deserved.

PS, I took the case to a different lawyer and won the lawsuit. The client ran out of money which is why he didn't pay my client's invoice but that didn't mean that my client didn't have to pay me. I'm guessing that some of the lawsuits against Trump were of that ilk also. subcontracting is very common in the building industry. If my client didn't have money to pay, I would have had to sue the client's client to see if I could get any money from them.
Back in Chicago, talking with the lawyers, they told me that Trump di this a lot, and that they were not the only ones that had to go to court. No matter what you say, Trump is a cheat, and uses up people then throws them away. Loyalty is a one way street for him. Btw, my wife worked for a law firm that was also stiffed by the Donald. And I am sure he only weighs 220 Lbs. If true then he would look like an NFL free safety, instead of a balloon in a suit.
 

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As long as you are absolutely sure that in none of the cases there was any justification for not paying for the service.

Again I ask - should I have paid the lawyer I fired for cause? Should the middle man have had to pay me even though his client didn't pay him?

I don't know what the situations were in all of the lawsuits and I'm not reading the transcripts so I'm never going to be able to make a valid assessment. I wonder how many lawsuits GM or Microsoft or CitiCorp are involved in annually. There are hundreds of open suits involving Microsoft. I stopped counting at 260. Are they also evil? How many times have they been sued for violations of patents or trademarks? They must just be thieves stealing from the little people. Microsoft is just one company. Trump has multiple companies.
 

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I repeat, Trump is a known deadbeat.
52 years in business approximately 22,450 employees, countless lawyers, haven't they got the word ? ;)

Coming into contact with thousands upon thousands of people there are bound to be some disgruntled folks like you, it's the nature of doing business.
 

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