Gun laws do they work (2 Viewers)

Alc

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I have to agree somewhat - except that a Mumbai, Nairobi style attack with guns is a big threat at the moment.
Is is really that bad? I admit to having lost track a bit since emigrating. The only family I still have in the UK are in what I would imagine to be a pretty low-risk area, so I haven't followed events as closely as I might.

Either way, the gun lobby are on a winner: if something happens, they can say 'I told you so and if I'd been there it wouldn't have happened'. If nothing happens, they can say 'It hasn't happened yet but it will'. They can only ever be proven right or nor right yet.
 

AnthonyGerrard

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Is is really that bad? I admit to having lost track a bit since emigrating. The only family I still have in the UK are in what I would imagine to be a pretty low-risk area, so I haven't followed events as closely as I might.

Either way, the gun lobby are on a winner: if something happens, they can say 'I told you so and if I'd been there it wouldn't have happened'. If nothing happens, they can say 'It hasn't happened yet but it will'. They can only ever be proven right or nor right yet.

Its not bad in the sense that ordinary folk spend any time worrying about it. It is on the radar of security services though, as a genuine threat. Places like Eiffel tower have armed patrol I think in large part to threat like that. Not sure if tourist areas on London have any - didn't notice in August.
 

Bladerunner

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As far as terrorist using bombs, I agree. The bombs are indeed to used to terrorize and to tear down the economy. However, once the economy is down, bombs no longer make the desired effects. The UK I am afraid will be find this out very soon. Then the US. I am not so much worried about the Muslims, but rather the gangs that are popping up all over the place. They are armed and have the morals of a jackass (donkey).

As far as gun control, I agree to a degree that carrying a hand gun should have background check and have a license. all other areas of gun control are a slippery slope. Several large cities have the strictest of gun control and yet, they are 1 and 2 in number of murders by gun. This is not to say that if everyone carried a gun, this would go down but it has been shown in other towns where the citizen are handgun owners,. the results of murders are almost 180 degrees in reverse.

The last point I am going to make on Gun Control. In the US, our constitution gives us citizens a right to bear arms. Now there is a on going agenda that wants to rewrite the constitution without going through the proper channels.

Borrowing a saying from Benjamin Franklin and change it just a little. " when you give up your liberties for Security, You will have neither' ("you deserve neither")..

This does not only pertain to guns, but to any liberty we have. (i.e. Obamacare takes away the liberty of each person to find their own healthcare. This has has been replaced with a national one party healthcare system that has raise prices so far, several million people cannot afford it. therefore, one liberty lost in hopes that the government would provide a healthcare type security. We now have none or very little security in this area. )

Detroit feel down because of 1. Labor unions; 2. tax and spend Democrats and 3. Handouts to the less fortunate instead of training so they might feed themselves. I was there in 69' when it was a booming and vibrant city. However, later that year, The blacks burnt their own areas down to protest. We see this continued today.
 

Frothingslosh

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I am not so much worried about the Muslims, but rather the gangs that are popping up all over the place. They are armed and have the morals of a jackass (donkey).

This much I can agree with you, although I see them as symptomatic of a lot of issues: culture/glorification of violence, crushing poverty (which has ALWAYS gone hand-in-hand with violence), a system quite literally stacked against them (virtually impossible to get out with an inner-city education), disenfranchisement, ongoing oppression (whether real or apparent), all come to mind. Let's not forget the war on drugs, too - it has vastly increased the profits, which led to the big cartels, which stand behind these gangs.

Several large cities have the strictest of gun control and yet, they are 1 and 2 in number of murders by gun.

That's quite an interesting assertion. Got any proof? I ask because I found a study HERE that, after checking data from 2007 to 2010, found the states with the strictest gun control laws generally had drastically lower gun-related death rates, including New York. And for the record, Detroit does not qualify as either #1 or #2 in gun control laws - those appear to be Chicago and NYC.

This is not to say that if everyone carried a gun, this would go down but it has been shown in other towns where the citizen are handgun owners,. the results of murders are almost 180 degrees in reverse.

Personally, I see the problem being how we glorify violence, not the guns themselves. Both England and Switzerland have drastically lower violent crime rates than the US, but England has more or less banned private gun ownership, while Switzerland requires gun ownership. That tells me that problem lies in attitudes, not the weapons themselves.


The last point I am going to make on Gun Control. In the US, our constitution gives us citizens a right to bear arms. Now there is a on going agenda that wants to rewrite the constitution without going through the proper channels.

Misrepresentation at it's finest. The 'agenda', as you put it, is that a lot of people understand that one person having a gun doesn't mean that they are magically immune to crime, that the bad guys will always get guns as long as they're widely available, and that the bad guys are more than willing to use them. Yes, a lot of people feel that the second amendment is outdated and causing more harm than good, and while I don't agree with them, I at least have made a point of understanding their arguments.

What they're NOT trying to do is ignore the constitution. SCOTUS has indicated that guns can be regulated to a certain point in the best interest of society itself, as long as certain very broad limites aren't crossed. Registration, licensing, and the like are all perfectly valid (just as with any other highly dangerous equipment), and localities are more free than state and federal governments to restrict when and where guns can be carried. If you, like so many extreme right-wingers, feel that the second amendment prohibits any and all government regulation of firearms, then there are political movements and representatives' phone numbers available.

Borrowing a saying from Benjamin Franklin and change it just a little. " when you give up your liberties for Security, You will have neither' ("you deserve neither")..

Specifically, the quote is "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.", and he first said that in his 1755 letter to the Pennsylvania Assembly. I've always been fond of this quote, especially since 2001 and the stripping of so unbelievably many of our rights by USA PATRIOT Act. That is, in large part, what drove me from the GOP.

This does not only pertain to guns, but to any liberty we have. (i.e. Obamacare takes away the liberty of each person to find their own healthcare. This has has been replaced with a national one party healthcare system that has raise prices so far, several million people cannot afford it. therefore, one liberty lost in hopes that the government would provide a healthcare type security. We now have none or very little security in this area. )

Detroit feel down because of 1. Labor unions; 2. tax and spend Democrats and 3. Handouts to the less fortunate instead of training so they might feed themselves. I was there in 69' when it was a booming and vibrant city. However, later that year, The blacks burnt their own areas down to protest. We see this continued today.

As non-gun related, I will pass on addressing these. If you wish to start other topics regarding US health care, Detroit's history and problems, or racial relations, I will be happy to address these in the proper place. For the record, however, I may not be entirely unbiased, as I work in Health Care and grew up and live just outside Detroit.
 

Alc

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As far as terrorist using bombs, I agree. The bombs are indeed to used to terrorize and to tear down the economy. However, once the economy is down, bombs no longer make the desired effects. The UK I am afraid will be find this out very soon. Then the US. I am not so much worried about the Muslims, but rather the gangs that are popping up all over the place. They are armed
Does this have any basis in fact or is it just a summary of the Mad Max films?
 

Bladerunner

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Translation: I have no evidence or proof for my assertions, so I will blame you instead.

Oh, Ye of little faith!

Europe especially UK have a large Muslim population already within their borders. While most of these Muslims are moderate, there are those terrorist cells from within just waiting to spring into action. ISIS and the World Caliphate if allowed to continue will bring these cells to life. Otherwise, I have no evidence that it will happen and pray that it does not. But the Terrorist want to kill those who do not believe. They (non believers) will either be converted to Islam, submit and pay taxes (slaves) or be put to death.

Not it is not the end of days!
 

Frothingslosh

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Oh, Ye of little faith!

Europe especially UK have a large Muslim population already within their borders. While most of these Muslims are moderate, there are those terrorist cells from within just waiting to spring into action. ISIS and the World Caliphate if allowed to continue will bring these cells to life. Otherwise, I have no evidence that it will happen and pray that it does not. But the Terrorist want to kill those who do not believe. They (non believers) will either be converted to Islam, submit and pay taxes (slaves) or be put to death.

Not it is not the end of days!

So basically you're saying that Muslims have created both secret (World Caliphate) and not-so-secret (ISIS, which last I checked already has its hands quite full in Syria and Iraq) cabals to take over the world, and are just waiting for the secret password to simultaneously overthrow every government in the world before murdering all True Believers (tm) and *gasp* making the rest pay taxes. And you have not a whiff of proof, but know this to be true in your gut. Likely because scary brown people. So much for the grand Zionist conspiracy that was going to do the same thing. Or the Freemasons before them. Got it.

This really needs to be its own discussion and not on the gun control thread. Also, I'm with Brian - I have no CLUE what you mean by 'Not it is not the end of days.' That sentence literally makes zero sense, and I've STUDIED Revalations.
 

Alc

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So basically you're saying that Muslims have created both secret (World Caliphate) and not-so-secret (ISIS, which last I checked already has its hands quite full in Syria and Iraq) cabals to take over the world, and are just waiting for the secret password to simultaneously overthrow every government in the world before murdering all True Believers (tm) and *gasp* making the rest pay taxes. And you have not a whiff of proof, but know this to be true in your gut. Likely because scary brown people. So much for the grand Zionist conspiracy that was going to do the same thing. Or the Freemasons before them. Got it.
Blade says that, and yet…..
I am not so much worried about the Muslims
If I believed half of that was true, I'd be worried.
 

Bladerunner

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Is that supposed to help?

Are you telling me to read the book?

Brian

LOL,,,,, NOooooo I am not being mean,. It was just a statement that addressed your question of something like "What does that mean". The 'end of days' is usually equated with Revelations and there are a lot of people out there that are proclaiming the 'end of days' is here.

My apologies if you took that wrong. I would not do that on purpose.
 

Bladerunner

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So basically you're saying that Muslims have created both secret (World Caliphate) and not-so-secret (ISIS, which last I checked already has its hands quite full in Syria and Iraq) cabals to take over the world, and are just waiting for the secret password to simultaneously overthrow every government in the world before murdering all True Believers (tm) and *gasp* making the rest pay taxes. And you have not a whiff of proof, but know this to be true in your gut. Likely because scary brown people. So much for the grand Zionist conspiracy that was going to do the same thing. Or the Freemasons before them. Got it.

This really needs to be its own discussion and not on the gun control thread. Also, I'm with Brian - I have no CLUE what you mean by 'Not it is not the end of days.' That sentence literally makes zero sense, and I've STUDIED Revalations.

It would seem that ISIS is Proclaiming they have created the State Caliphate. Now, for your insolence, all I meant was that when the world Caliphate is established, yes it is my opinion that a switch will be turned on that will not only awaken sleeping cells but bring in more of the moderates into the "dark side" lol.

If I had proof that this was happening then I would be in the intelligence business.

As far as the converting to Islam or pay the taxes and be slaves or die is concerned, It is in the Koran and one of the other books of Mohamed. Check it out.

Yes, my secretary misspelled the word NO. The way you two are acting, I did something that should cost me life in prison?????????? ps. and you cannot spell Revelations but you have studied it?

I think it is time for me to leave this thread before I say something I will feel bad about in the morning. Bye
 

Frothingslosh

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1) Why am I not surprised that you can't even accept responsibility for a simple typo.
Yes, my secretary misspelled the word NO.
I'm not even going to ask why you have a secretary posting for you, but man does that bring up some messed-up mental images. Funny you hammer me for a typo when you can't accept responsibility for doing the same. Also, "No, it is not the end of days" appears nowhere in Revelations. Or are you trying to say we were claiming that?


2) Since when is disagreeing with you being insolent? Would you have preferred I straight-up called your end-of-the-world fantasies idiotic? Between this and the incredibly arrogant, unbelievably condescending tone you tend to take in the atheism thread, I really must say this: You really need to get over yourself.
 

dimitris9

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IMHO guns are only there for the worse.
Reading statistics, people are most often getting killed by their own guns.
 

Frothingslosh

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To be fair, most of those incidents when someone is killed by their own gun are suicides. It's always irked me that those get included in the 'deaths by gun' stats that then get used in arguments about gun violence.
 

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