Jesus Christ - Fact or Fiction?

[Adeptus]

terrorism is an attention getter

And it is getting attention. Look at all the paranoia about it. Look at the way laws are being changed and security tightened to the detriment of the innocent citizen. The current governments of the world (but particularly USA) are in effect giving the terrorists what they want. Terror.

It is of considerable interest, however, that many "creation" myths contain similar themes including creation from chaos, various catastrophes visited on cities, and a great flood that washed away much of humanity.

Similar themes in creation stories could be explained by contact between the cultures involved, or a common cultural ancestor.

There is evidence of a localised flood that roughly fits the Noah story. It is supported by historical documents. But global? Don't think so.

 

[Mile-O]

There is evidence of a localised flood that roughly fits the Noah story. It is supported by historical documents. But global? Don't think so.

I'd go with the retelling of Sumerian myth, believed as literal fact.

 

[shadow9449]

I would like to enquire as to peoples interpretation of the one of the worlds longest running debates.

Did Jesus Christ exist, and if so was he the son of God or just a well educated man and that over the centuries chinese whispers have portrayed him to be the son of God..

My opinion is as follows:

Considering the harsh Roman oppression of Judea between 100 BC and 100 AD, many people claiming to be the Old Testament Messiah came and went. Many of these guys had fair-size followings. When you have a guy with a following, the legends start.

The Gospels (the only source of the existence of Jesus) are simply a compilation of many legends that developed about many Messiah claimants. Remember, the four Gospels that are part of today's Bibles are just four out of hundreds. These guys lived during the period I mentioned above, and perhaps SOME of them were named Yeshu (Iasou or Iasous in Greek, Jesus in Latin) Remember, Yeshu was one of the most common names at the time.

The cult of his followers would have died down like the other cults of the time if not for Constantine, (a pagan) and his extreme brutality followed by his successor, the Roman Church and their extreme brutality for most of the history of Christianity.

As far as the Gospels' description of Jesus being a nice guy, that's a matter of opinion. If you feel that "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. " (Matthew 10:34) or "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " (Luke 14:26) is a nice, fun-loving guy, then by all means. My opinion is otherwise.

Just reading the Gospels, I would say that the guy depicted is someone who wants to divert worship of God as he had been worshiped for 1000 years to worship of a man. Jesus' idea of who's a "good guy" or "bad guy" was no longer whether the person obeyed God's laws as set out in the Old Testament, but whether they joined his following or not by worshiping him.

Just my opinion because you asked

 

[Adeptus]

I'd go with the retelling of Sumerian myth, believed as literal fact.

Ah... following one of the links from there got me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth which links to the Sumerian King List, which was one of the sources I was quoted for historical evidence of a basis for Noah's flood. However, reading the list, it is obvious that it isn't an entirely historical document. They have kings listed as ruling for hundreds or even thousands of years, and some ascending to heaven...

So, ignoring documented evidence, I believe there is geographical evidence of a flood in the region

 

[jsanders]

So, you support the (so-called) Patriot Act?
People being locked up indefinitely, and tortured, on just the suspicion of terrorism?

No, But I believe the way to end terrorism in not a war. As I have said on many occasions.

The only answer is beer and TV, long term the only answer to the world's woes, are to make it where the guys (young men) are so busy trying to make ends meet they have no time for making bull shit gorilla missions. That wont end until the people running the oil rich Middle East stop taking it all for themselves and develop an economy based on the worth of production.

In the mean time, our only hope is to kill as many of the leaders, of terrorism, as necessary to send the message that the only way to peace is to quit.

American bantering aside, this is all happening because the fundamentalist want us to go away so they can take the Muslim world back about 800 years.

A Saudi saying goes something like this, “My Grandfather rode camels, my Father had a Roles Royce, I own a 747, my Grand Sons will ride camels”.

There is no force on earth that will stop the implosion of the Middle East. We can only hope to miss the tsunami.

 

[TessB]

Ok... I'd actually given the whole thing a thought the other day before this question was even posed. (btw, didn't read everyone's posts... so so so sorry... but had to jump in on this)

I thought about all the scriptures in the old testament that I could throw out there. as an example... ones that concerned stoning your son if he was rebellious and stuff like that. And of course I thought, "well, when I went to church, I was told that it was the OLD testament... and Jesus is all about forgiveness."

But then I got to thinking the other night....
Has GOD evolved? In the years B.C., he required animal sacrifices, and fanatically harsh sentences upon us that we, as an enlightened species would find revolting! Else we'd be giving a pass to any parent that decided to lynch their own spawn. I mean, seriously... if you heard of someone bringing their child to the town square to be killed by the community... would ANY ONE of us say, "yeah... that's okay!" Of course not! We've evolved! But... that was supposedly God's rule back then.

Ok... so bring in the fact (Christian fact albeit) that God is without beginning and without end. He is the Alpha and the Omega. Yeah... so why did he change his mind? Did something just COINCEDENTALLY happen to this almighty god that brought him to the realization that human slaughter and animal sacrifices were unacceptable and rather barbaric? (the last sacrifice was supposedly Jesus, to wash our sins... how convenient!)
So... do the Jews, who don't recognise Jesus as that sacrificial lamb, and do not believe in the New Testament, continue with the animal sacrifices of old? Do they still stone their sons on the street?
Uh... NO! It seems to me that "god" has "evolved" right in step... maybe a step or two ahead... of the rest of humankind.

Are we following an "older brother" type figure, who is just a grade or two ahead of us?
No.... sorry... I can only come to the conclusion that we made him up in the first place.
"His" evolution and ours seem to be too remarkably alike. I think we made god in our own image. Not vice-versa.

Oh damn... here come the barbs and arrows.

Well, then I may as well tell you that I am the incarnation of the Goddess Aphrodite and I'll be mad as hell if you cross me or attempt to wound me.
You don't want to anger a goddess, do you? I happen to know Jesus... personal friend of mine... he'd be pissed too.

 

[Adeptus]

Well, then I may as well tell you that I am the incarnation of the Goddess Aphrodite and I'll be mad as hell if you cross me or attempt to wound me.
You don't want to anger a goddess, do you? I happen to know Jesus... personal friend of mine... he'd be pissed too.

Nice to hear from you Aphrodite! Loved your work in "Xena"!

 

[Rich]

No, But I believe the way to end terrorism in not a war. As I have said on many occasions.

The only answer is beer and TV, long term the only answer to the world's woes, are to make it where the guys (young men) are so busy trying to make ends meet they have no time for making bull shit gorilla missions. That wont end until the people running the oil rich Middle East stop taking it all for themselves and develop an economy based on the worth of production.

In the mean time, our only hope is to kill as many of the leaders, of terrorism, as necessary to send the message that the only way to peace is to quit.

American bantering aside, this is all happening because the fundamentalist want us to go away so they can take the Muslim world back about 800 years.

A Saudi saying goes something like this, “My Grandfather rode camels, my Father had a Roles Royce, I own a 747, my Grand Sons will ride camels”.

There is no force on earth that will stop the implosion of the Middle East. We can only hope to miss the tsunami.

You really do hate Muslims and the fact that they have oil don't you

 

[ColinEssex]

That wont end until the people running the oil rich Middle East stop taking it all for themselves and develop an economy based on the worth of production.

In the mean time, our only hope is to kill as many of the leaders, of terrorism, as necessary to send the message that the only way to peace is to quit.

Then I seriously suggest you start by looking in the White House - the world is a much more dangerous place since your current dictator got in. His one goal was to cause mayhem, and "secure" oil for the good ol' USA and sod everyone else.

Also, if you go round removing the leaders who control their countries [like Saddam] - see what happens when they're gone, people like Saddam maybe nasty pieces of work, but at least they keep things under control. Unlike the USA who have no idea or thoughts about consequences of their actions.

And why shouldn't North Korea or Iran have nuclear weapons? we have them. As I've said before, it'll be the USA that destroys the planet, not North Korea or Iran or whatever.

Just because the USA had one terrorist attack the whole world is now more dangerous and suffering because of a knee-jerk response by Bush

Col

 

[Rich]

And why shouldn't North Korea or Iran have nuclear weapons? Col

I think their argument would be that the leaders of those countries are unstable, oops, I've just thought of Bush and Bliar, scrub that argument

 

[ColinEssex]

I think their argument would be that the leaders of those countries are unstable, oops, I've just thought of Bush and Bliar, scrub that argument

what country in their right mind would even consider dropping a nuclear weapon on another country?

Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

what country in their right mind would even consider dropping a nuclear weapon on another country?

Col

None if that other country could hit back, but the key was

in their right mind

, and we are back to Bush and Blair.

Brian

 

[nikkypickles]

My twopen'orth

On whether Jesus existed - probably. I would imagine he was a charismatic man with his heart in the right place, even if his followers' heads weren't.

On whether religion is a good/bad thing - there is a theory to which I like to subscribe which reckons that without monotheistic religion, we wouldn't have the basis for modern scientific thinking. Religion contained the seeds of it's own undoing.

On why Christians are sad when they realise they're going to die - personally, I will be sad (I'm not religious, so joining God or not will remain a surprise to me until it happens) because of the love that I will be losing out on giving to my family and close friends. I will mourn the loss of that opportunity. I believe that, at some level, Christians probably feel the same. They may feel the love of God, but the tangible love from friends and family will be why they are sad.

On whether we use 2/3 of our brains - we may just be in the middle of an evolutionary change. We all have an appendix, but we don't use it. To prove what % of our brains are used for conscious thought, or unconscious thought, ask a me again in 10,000 years.

 

[ColinEssex]

and we are back to Bush and Blair.

I was referring to any country that has or will have a nuclear weapon, I did not refer to the UK or USA specifically.

I remember the "Yes Prime Minister" programme where Jim Hacker wanted to upgrade Trident (topical now) and was asked "when do you press the button?"
and was given several scenarios but couldn't justify it in any of them.

Its the same today some 20 years later. Even the so called "rogue" dictators are not stupid.

So I'll ask the question - "when do you press the button?"

Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

No Col you didn't refer to Bush and Blair, I did, as they appear as unhinged as the other dictators we are supposed to be afraid of.

Brian

 

[nikkypickles]

what country in their right mind would even consider dropping a nuclear weapon on another country?

Col

Wasn't that the point of the Cold War, MAD and all the rest?

As to when you press the button - for the greater good of the planet, only when under attack from Martians.

 

[Matt Greatorex]

The only answer is beer and TV

Or, indeed, bread and circuses?
Hasn't that been tried, without success? Distractions are no long term solution.

People busy trying 'to make ends meet' don't necessarily so so quietly. If someone can see that somebody else is better off - and there's always someone better off - resentment is inevitable. Look at countries with a long history, like the UK, France, etc. They've pretty much all experienced internal conflicts directly as a result of people 'trying to make ends meet'.

The only long term solution would be to somehow ensure that no-one has to struggle to get by and everyone has enough. Unrealistic, I know (communism didn't take into account human nature and failed, after all) but I don't see any other way.

 

[scott-atkinson]

The only long term solution would be to somehow ensure that no-one has to struggle to get by and everyone has enough. Unrealistic, I know (communism didn't take into account human nature and failed, after all) but I don't see any other way.

What a lovely vision, didn't John Lennon have the same dream

I think we are some way off of this, while we have a monetary fund and everything has a price there will always be envy and resentment.

Maybe we should all become Amish

 

[nikkypickles]

There is a school of thought that without some form of struggle, mankind will advance no further. Necessity being the mother of invention and all that. To triumph in the face of adversity has always been a staple of admiration in human nature.

And sadly, everything will always have a price - monetary or emotional.

Unfortunately, further still, short of doping the entire human race, there will always be envy and resentment. When I have PMT I'm envious of those who are happy, and resentful towards those who seem to go out of their way to antagonise me - albeit for real, or just in my chemically imbalanced brain.

 

[KalelGmoon]

Well, then I may as well tell you that I am the incarnation of the Goddess Aphrodite and I'll be mad as hell if you cross me or attempt to wound me.
You don't want to anger a goddess, do you? I happen to know Jesus... personal friend of mine... he'd be pissed too.

Wow a Goddess, ya mind if I come and visit and stuff? your husband Hermes wont mind will he? hehe I love Mythology