Atheists and theists are the same.

[Mike375]

A lot of the atheists I've spoken to would actually answer "I see no reason to suppose so", rather than 'no' (although they might shorten their answer to 'no' for the sake of clarity, in some cases).

Atheism isn't (as far as I understand it) the state of having looked everywhere for God, and found him absent.
It's more like the state of considering the idea of the existence of God not nearly credible enough to bother with.

There are of course variation in atheists (and theists) but the simple fact is atheism is a negative on God existing and theism is a positive on God existing.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

I guess, but I still don't see them as similar, but opposite.

 

[Mike375]

I guess, but I still don't see them as similar, but opposite.

That is what I have been saying.....negative and positive

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

Yes, and I'm saying I see them as different from one another, but not equivalent opposites.

(that wasn't clear in my previous post, which should in fact be read thusly:

I still don't see them as: [similar, but opposite].)

 

[Rabbie]

A lot of the atheists I've spoken to would actually answer "I see no reason to suppose so", rather than 'no' (although they might shorten their answer to 'no' for the sake of clarity, in some cases).

Atheism isn't (as far as I understand it) the state of having looked everywhere for God, and found him absent.
It's more like the state of considering the idea of the existence of God not nearly credible enough to bother with.

A fair comment. I don't spend time looking for unicorns or the tooth fairy either.

 

[Rich]

A fair comment. I don't spend time looking for unicorns or the tooth fairy either.

I spent a lot of time looking for presents from Santa that didn't arrive

 

[Alc]

I spent a lot of time looking for presents from Santa that didn't arrive

That could just be because you were a bad boy

 

[Alisa]

Is NOT selling insurance a business?
Is NOT posting on the AWF a hobby?
Is NOT shoveling the snow on your sidewalk excercise?

I would answer no, no, and no.

In light of the previous, Is NOT thinking there is a god a belief?

I would say, again, NO.

 

[Rich]

That could just be because you were a bad boy

But I went to church in those days

 

[Alc]

But I went to church in those days

There's your problem.
The great man didn't want you thinking about some mythical being who can perform fantastic deeds and bring joy to mankind, when you should be concentrating on Santa himself.

 

[JamesLast99]

Is NOT selling insurance a business?
Is NOT posting on the AWF a hobby?
Is NOT shoveling the snow on your sidewalk excercise?

I would answer no, no, and no.

In light of the previous, Is NOT thinking there is a god a belief?

I would say, again, NO.

Are you recategorizing yourself as someone who doesn't think about the existence of God? Or are you actually thinking there is no God? ie believing?

 

[Alisa]

Are you recategorizing yourself as someone who doesn't think about the existence of God? Or are you actually thinking there is no God? ie believing?

If someone doesn't sell insurance, does that mean they are in the business of not selling insurance?

If someone thinks doesn't shovel snow, does that mean they are excercising?

If someone doesn't collect stamps, does that mean they have a hobby of not collecting stamps?

If someone doesn't believe in god, does that mean they have a belief of not believing in god?

I am still waiting for someone to articulate what makes the last statement any different than the first three, without resorting to the extremely tired tactic of using the word belief to mean two completely different things.

 

[Rabbie]

Perhaps someone would like to clarify the difference in meaning between these 2 statements

A. I do not believe there is a god
B. I believe there is not a god.

Do these statements mean the same thing or is there a difference?

 

[Brianwarnock]

I believe that B is a much stronger believe in the non existence of a God, but that is just my opinion based on how I would speak.

Brian

 

[Alc]

I believe that B is a much stronger believe in the non existence of a God, but that is just my opinion based on how I would speak.

Brian

I think you're right.
The first could be said by an agnostic and an atheist.
The second could only be said by an atheist.

 

[Alisa]

Perhaps someone would like to clarify the difference in meaning between these 2 statements

A. I do not believe there is a god
B. I believe there is not a god.

Do these statements mean the same thing or is there a difference?

I think in any other context, these mean about the same thing. Think about this:
I do not believe there is a flying spaghetti monster.
I believe there is not a flying spaghetti monster.
I do not believe in Santa Claus.
I believe Sanata Claus does not exist.

Whose gonna split hairs with you over that?
The only reason this becomes an issue of debate is because the supernaturalists are trying to cling to this completely illogical argument that not believing is the same as believing. It just isn't. I don't care how you phrase it, or what order you put the words in. Not believing is just not the same as believing.

 

[Mike375]

Perhaps someone would like to clarify the difference in meaning between these 2 statements

A. I do not believe there is a god
B. I believe there is not a god.

Do these statements mean the same thing or is there a difference?

What Brian said.

A. I do not believe there is a god (or whatever) indicates a position that was arrived at without much thought or research.

B. I believe there is not a god (or whatever) indicates a position that was arrived at after a lot of thought or research.

What about

C I do not know if there is a god. That is still similar to A

D I know there is not a god. That is different to B

 

[ShaneMan]

I think in any other context, these mean about the same thing. Think about this:
I do not believe there is a flying spaghetti monster.
I believe there is not a flying spaghetti monster.
I do not believe in Santa Claus.
I believe Sanata Claus does not exist.

Whose gonna split hairs with you over that?
The only reason this becomes an issue of debate is because the supernaturalists are trying to cling to this completely illogical argument that not believing is the same as believing. It just isn't. I don't care how you phrase it, or what order you put the words in. Not believing is just not the same as believing.

Hey Alisa, I think you know where I would stand on this issue and as a "super naturalists" and a believer. I believe that your not believing makes you a non-believer and as a non-believer you have no belief in anything. Not believing is an absence of belief and therefor can not be the same as believing, so this "super naturalists" does not require you to be labeled as believing as a non-believer. (a small attempt at humor but I do agree with what you are saying about atheist. I obviously don't agree with the stand that atheists make but I do not try to create a definition of them that is inaccurate.)

 

[Mike375]

I think in any other context, these mean about the same thing. Think about this:
I do not believe there is a flying spaghetti monster.
I believe there is not a flying spaghetti monster.
I do not believe in Santa Claus.
I believe Sanata Claus does not exist.

Whose gonna split hairs with you over that?
The only reason this becomes an issue of debate is because the supernaturalists are trying to cling to this completely illogical argument that not believing is the same as believing. It just isn't. I don't care how you phrase it, or what order you put the words in. Not believing is just not the same as believing.

You are not completely right that it is splitting hairs. Forn example, if a "born again" was on a conversion mission answer A lets him know he is in with a chance. Similar to someone who says.....I am not really interested in disability insurance...very different answer to....I am not interested in disability insurance....

But it is a debating issue and every believer know it drives atheists mad. Atheists also make it easier by producing endless pages of attempts to definie atheism However, for the person who just defaults to atheism, that is, it is not some statement of position, they could not care less about whether "believe or not believe" is used.

Based on my experience with Atheist forums, I would not regard most of the atheists that participate in these threads asthe opposite number to "born agains". There are two basic differences. Firstly, the "born again" atheist is on a conversion mission. Secondly, atheism is a spin off of his basic ways of thinking. Do nothing without absolute proof.

 

[Mike375]

I obviously don't agree with the stand that atheists make but I do not try to create a definition of them that is inaccurate.

But if the atheist says he does not know 100% that God does not exist, then he has entered a position of faith. Richard Dawkins explains this quite well.