Alternate Energy

[Brianwarnock]

As I sat in the sun on a sand dune at Formby Point yesterday looking at the motionless windfarm in the Mersy estuary, I thought " How much wind does it take to make those monstrosities produce viable energy?"
Does anybody know?
Any clues to where I can get info?

Brian

 

[pbaldy]

Google? I think it's a given that all alternate energy sources still require something to provide the base load for when it's not windy/sunny/whatever.

 

[dkinley]

Popular Science might be worth the effort ... popsci.com.

They ran some articles about 6 months ago that talked about returns and the technology involved. Can't recall how specific, though.

-dK

 

[Brianwarnock]

Thanks for the response guys, Google finally led me to the BWEA site and the discovery that they start working at 10 MPH and reach max power at 33 MPH.

With the spate of calm days (weeks) we have had not much produced here then.

Brian

 

[Mike375]

I have often wondered if there were sufficient wind mills and solar panels to deliver all the current energy needs for the entire world then would there be some impact on climate etc.

In other words is wind and solar energy really cost free?

 

[Banana]

Just to point out that *regardless* where you get it with exception of nuclear power, energy is fundamentally a derivative of solar power. Fossil fuels had to be fossilized by heating indirectly and dams has to depend on sun evaporating the water and spilling it on mountains so it'd flow down, windmills depends on sun to heat the air to create winds (to be complete, winds also can be created simply due to the planet's rotation, but I believe it's insignificant player in grand scheme of things).

And exactly what fuels sun? Well, nuclear reactions. Thus, the most direct and thus most efficient source would be nuclear power plant. Except that we have some yuppies running amok screaming the end of world if they find a three-eyed fish. Go figure.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

The sun is powered by nuclear fusion, which is really a very different thing from nuclear fission that powers our current reactors, despite sounding similar.

If we could develop viable fusion power, it would be really good, but it looks like it might be very hard to do - in the sun, it happens because because of the enormous compression forces at the centre. We can reproduce those conditions here on earth, but so far, only for very brief moments, in single-use containers, and at an energy cost that exceeds the output.
We probably should keep trying on that one though.

Wind farms technically could operate with even a gentle breeze, but they shut them down in such conditions, because it's below the break-even point owing to things like wear and tear and running costs, which do not scale directly proportionally to the wind speed or power output.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Wind farms technically could operate with even a gentle breeze, but they shut them down in such conditions, because it's below the break-even point owing to things like wear and tear and running costs, which do not scale directly proportionally to the wind speed or power output.

Which is why I used the word viable in my original post.

Brian

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

It's called agreement.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Just to be clear Mike I wasn't being awkward or nitpicking with you just explaining that I used the word viable so thatnobody would reply saying that they can produce energy at very low wind speeds levels, when as you clearly explained it is not viable, I'm making a meal of this but yes we are in agreement.

Brian

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

Oops. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Banana]

Mike, you're correct about sun being a fusion, rather than fission, which is what we have (in terms of viable energy, that is); my point had more to do with the fact that at core, everything is derived from nuclear energy, whether fusion or fission, and understanding that everything will be essentially a Rube Goldberg method of extracting methods.. as in case with fossil fuel, it's sun heating and thus decaying organic matters which then get buried under sentiment and is under pressure for X years before we come out with petroleum products. This wouldn't be had if we didn't have sun to fuel the production.

The fundamental problem as I see it is that the proposed solution usually is incomplete. For example, if we converted everyone to use electric cars, we're still polluting because electric cars would probably be fueled by fossil fuel power plants which would have to increase their output to support all the cars. Until people realize that the energy problem is inherent in how we obtain the energy in first place, several solutions on the table won't do anything to actually solve the issue. I think that point got lost in my previous post.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

A big part of the problem is (In my opinion) waste. Ramping up alternative energy production is only part of the picture - we have to manage our consumption to levels that can sustainably be produced that way.

And it's not just inefficient machines and engines, it's frivolous travel, shipping, packaging, etc - it all consumes lots of energy and resources - we've all been living as if the supply was inexhaustible.

 

[statsman]

There are lots of renewable energy sources available. What is lacking is the will to exploit them.

The highest tides in the world are located in the Bay of Fundy in Canada (located between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick if you wish to check your map).

By placing a dam across the mouth of the bay, you would open the gates when the tide is coming in and close them to produce hydro-electricity as the tide ebbs. You could produce enough electricity in this manner to cover most of eastern North America.

I have no idea how much such a project would cost, so I'll just pull a number out of the air of $5 Billion.

So long as you can produce electricity for less than that using other sources (like oil gas or coal), it won't happen.

 

[Rich]

What happens at high and low tide?

 

[Brianwarnock]

What happens at high and low tide?

I thought that that was explained in the post.
At low tide you open the gates, at high tide you close them.

Brian

 

[GaryPanic]

one solution is water heating solar panels
the professionally made ones work at about 70% effeicienty-


the home made ones work at 50% but cost about 1/10 of the cost
photovonic solar panels seem to be a good idea - but effieceny needs to be better and the cost reduced

wind geneerators can take some of the edge off - again home made ones being more cost effeicent that profeesionally made one

ground pumps can work - but you need a fair bit of land

bio fuels do seems tob e counter productive unless they are from recovered sources - chip fat etc...
i have read some on digestors that take farm yard manure and convert to methane then burnoff running generators ..

i think the solution is to reduce our electrical requirements - my big beef is these plug in glade air fresheners - - if you want your house to smell nice - put some popuri out (might be a typo there) or hand some spices out that will smell nice ..

turning off the street lights at say 2 in the moring seems like a good idea

wave power looks like a good solution for the costal zones -

 

[Fifty2One]

We were quoted $16,000.00 cad for a turn key system for our home for wind power. Sort of a lot of money to put the farm BACK to wind power.
In 1950s USA decided they wanted to be more like European countries and have a national grid and have every American hook up to the electrical utilities. Prior to this campaign the electricity was supplied on a local basis by either stations near major cities or in rural areas some people had their own small windmills or water generators or gas generators.
Canada was a few years behind but we soon joined the idea it is better to be screwed by larger copropations than local business - or have all the inconvenience of having to maintain your own equipment once a year...

Here is a G.E.Theater trailer with your host Ronald Reagan from 1957 promoting people to embrace the convenience of getting on the electrical grid in USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5KEu5WvdnE

 

[statsman]

I thought that that was explained in the post.
At low tide you open the gates, at high tide you close them.

Brian

It's the other way round.
When the tide is coming in, the gates are opened to allow the tide to enter the Bay. The flow of the tide powers the turbines.
As the tide starts to ebb, the gates are closed to allow the water to flow back to the sea at a specific rate that matches the arrival of the next tide again powering the turbines.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

energy is fundamentally a derivative of solar power

Besides Nuclear mentioned, there are a couple of other exceptions of note.

Tidal (The Moon)
Geothermal (possibly caused by a combination of the moon and nuclear in the Earth core)